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'Final Edit' advice

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RumpleForeskin
The Right Rev of Lush
An oft-published writer buddy (primarily fantasy) posted this on FaceBook today. Feel free to cuss, discuss, and/or add your own advice.


Final final manuscript revision before printing and submitting to my agent (now) always involves the same procedure: delete 95% of adverbs and strengthen the verbs instead; delete 95% of all/some/that/quite/rather/then/etc; delete 90% of dialogue tags in 2-person conversations and replace with action beats. This usually drops (no lie) 7-8k from my final word count and should make my personal grammar Nazi *cough, cough* much happier.
RUMPLATIONS: AwesomeHonky Tonk and Cyber Bar
Home of the Lush "IN" crowd: indecent, intoxicated, and insolvent
a place to gossip, share news, talk sports, pimp a story, piss & moan, or just grab a drink. Check it out.

Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwords. -- ROBERT HEINLEIN
RumpleForeskin
The Right Rev of Lush
(bump) Why? Because I think it's good advice.

RUMPLATIONS: AwesomeHonky Tonk and Cyber Bar
Home of the Lush "IN" crowd: indecent, intoxicated, and insolvent
a place to gossip, share news, talk sports, pimp a story, piss & moan, or just grab a drink. Check it out.

Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwords. -- ROBERT HEINLEIN
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
I agree with all those. I probably go a little far with cutting dialogue tags, and am not strict enough with myself at cutting adverbs (they can be so damn hard to cut, though I agree they are lazy writing).
browncoffee
Coco Pop
WOW! I've never done this! Must go look up what an 'adverb' is.
Unknown User
Quote by RumpleForeskin
An oft-published writer buddy (primarily fantasy) posted this on FaceBook today. Feel free to cuss, discuss, and/or add your own advice.


Final final manuscript revision before printing and submitting to my agent (now) always involves the same procedure: delete 95% of adverbs and strengthen the verbs instead; delete 95% of all/some/that/quite/rather/then/etc; delete 90% of dialogue tags in 2-person conversations and replace with action beats. This usually drops (no lie) 7-8k from my final word count and should make my personal grammar Nazi *cough, cough* much happier.



Yep. Definitely good advice. Not sure I'd so that on the FINAL edit though? The second to last, maybe?
Beffer
Rainbow Warrior
The adverb rule is generally true, but there are only so many 'stronger' verbs to go around in a writer's vocabulary. When we all use them instead of adverbs, we tend to use them repetitiously, which is as bad or worse than the adverbs themselves. Use adverbs judiciously, and use stronger verbs when you can actually think of one that hasn't been so overused it becomes trite. Some adverbs are actually quite lovely!
Unknown User
Quote by Saucymh


Yep. Definitely good advice. Not sure I'd so that on the FINAL edit though? The second to last, maybe?


Yeah, I find what that snippet describes tends to happen earlier in the process for me so that the final edit is down to just tweaks.
Guest
Lurker
My use of words get me busted and I need to do better at editing.
Liz
Scarlet Seductress
I like adverbs but you have to be careful not to overuse them.

I think if you strip too many out you run the risk of making your story sterile, like a triple distilled shot of literature. The flipside is cramming the piece with so many that it ends up fat and fluffy.
Milik_the_Red
Internet Philosopher
Really excellent advice. I use far too many but my editor has been helping me work last that habit. It is difficult for me as i love using adverbs. Ah well, its a foolish man who refuses to accept good advice.

Thanks Jwren for getting me to take a second look at my skills.
Wilful
Devil's Advocate
Quote by Liz
I like adverbs but you have to be careful not to overuse them.

I think if you strip too many out you run the risk of making your story sterile, like a triple distilled shot of literature. The flipside is cramming the piece with so many that it ends up fat and fluffy.


Well said. It's all about finding the right balance.

I'm prone to be a bit heavy-handed with the adjectives myself, especially early on in my stories. I think it makes for building a more vivid scene in the reader's mind. Liz and Sprite do it seamlessly - I'll have to go back and see how they do it.
My latest story is a racy little piece about what happens when someone cute from work invites you over to watch Netflix and Chill.
HeraTeleia
Top Shot
Quote by Liz
I like adverbs but you have to be careful not to overuse them.

I think if you strip too many out you run the risk of making your story sterile, like a triple distilled shot of literature. The flipside is cramming the piece with so many that it ends up fat and fluffy.


Yah, adverbs and adjectives are a careful balance. My pieces generally start out somewhere around a total word count of around 3,500; I let them sit for a while in my Google Drive, then mercilessly weed whack out everything that isn't absolutely necessary to the piece.

Aspire to write like J.R.R. Tolkien, aspire to weed whack like Hemingway, is what an English Lit professor of mine told me years ago in university. This is probably why many, if not most, of my pieces end up in the Flash Erotica category (less than or equal to 1,000 words) or come (no pun intended) very close to landing in that category, at somewhere around the 1,500 word mark.

Side note: A huge personal pet peeve of mine is the overuse of commas. There's the "regular" comma, the Oxford comma, and aside from those, they shouldn't be in a piece. I've read many otherwise good or great pieces on this site wherein the author confuses a pause in thought with a need for a comma. If in doubt, lose the comma. Semicolons are your friend, not so much commas. Just my thoughts on the subject.
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Just_A_Guy_You_Know
Wouldn't you rather have a nice cup of tea?
Quote by BethanyFrasier
The adverb rule is generally true, but there are only so many 'stronger' verbs to go around in a writer's vocabulary. When we all use them instead of adverbs, we tend to use them repetitiously, which is as bad or worse than the adverbs themselves. Use adverbs judiciously, and use stronger verbs when you can actually think of one that hasn't been so overused it becomes trite. Some adverbs are actually quite lovely!


I agree. It's irritating when someone (myself included) finds that 'word of the day' and then uses it over and over again. It's better to avoid being repetitive, even if it means tossing in a few adverbs from time to time, just to mix things up. I think in writing, as in most things in life, adhering too hard and fast to a particular rule can make things dull. I prefer authors who develop a good feel for the language rather than those who rigidly follow particular guidelines dictating grammar and style.

*ahem* I should add that in general, though, I also agree with the advice of the OP, trim what fat you can from your story.

Don't believe everything that you read.
LikeToWrite
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by Milik_the_Red
Really excellent advice. I use far too many but my editor has been helping me work last that habit. It is difficult for me as i love using adverbs. Ah well, its a foolish man who refuses to accept good advice.

Thanks Jwren for getting me to take a second look at my skills.


Milik, I'd like to ask you a question. If you think your writing has been so wrong because you love adverbs, why are you one of the better rated authors on this site? Also, I'd like to know why have your stories won so many awards? It seems to me you must be doing something right. And as the saying goes, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

I agree, if a strong verb can be found, then it should be used. To almost completly cut out ALL adverbs as a blanket procedure, no, that I can't agree with. I think it was Liz that said if that happened, the composition would seem sterile. There is a reason adverbs were invented in the first place. I think good writing is a mixture of both, which creates variety and keeps the reader interested.

That is my two-cents worth of advice. If someone doesn't like what I said, then give me my two pennies back. LOL
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Milik_the_Red
Internet Philosopher
Quote by LikeToWrite


Milik, I'd like to ask you a question. If you think your writing has been so wrong because you love adverbs, why are you one of the better rated authors on this site? Also, I'd like to know why have your stories won so many awards? It seems to me you must be doing something right. And as the saying goes, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

I agree, if a strong verb can be found, then it should be used. To almost completly cut out ALL adverbs as a blanket procedure, no, that I can't agree with. I think it was Liz that said if that happened, the composition would seem sterile. There is a reason adverbs were invented in the first place. I think good writing is a mixture of both, which creates variety and keeps the reader interested.

That is my two-cents worth of advice. If someone doesn't like what I said, then give me my two pennies back. LOL



Thank you for the kind words. While I am proud of my work, I do try to keep in mind I can always improve. After working with my Editor, Jwren, I have seen the improvement made by reducing the 'wordiness' of my narration. While at time, adverbs can add flavorr, too many become clunky. The key is learning when to use them.
Unknown User
Screw the number of adjectives used - I think the most important thing to do when editing is read your work. If it sounds right, it probably is. If you stumble over sentences or find yourself skipping sections, it's not right and needs work. It's also important to get a second opinion (editors like JWren are invaluable) because authors read what they think they've written, not what's actually there. A second reader can often spot grammatical errors that slipped right past the author too. If a second opinion is not an option, sit on the work overnight and look at it fresh the next day. And the day after that...
Emerson501
Sultan of Smut
Cranky editor: If I read another typo or adverb from you, I'm going to kill myself!
Me: Know your knot
Check out my latest - a humorous collaboration with trinket and a Recommended Read
Buz
The Linebacker
Stripping a story of all adverbs would make it sterile even with the use of strong verbs. Of course, overuse of adverbs with weak verbs is also undesirable and the story will lose action. A good balance will make your story more interesting.

Commas are supposed to be used where they are required. You will find more commas in prose than in newspaper and magazine text. That is because prose follows a stricter adherence to grammatical rules. Magazine and newspaper text is written and edited to fit tight space requirements so that they can fit in the advertisements. They go with a minimum of punctuation.

Do not be in a rush when editing and proofing. Having a very competent proofreader/editor is really important for you to get the best story product at completion. Also, when depending upon only yourself, please set it aside for a good length of time so you can later look at it with fresh eyes.

Another suggestion is to download Grammarly or something similar. There are also free websites that will check your grammar and punctuation. On those, you may only be able to do a small portion of your text at a time but still worth using.
RumpleForeskin
The Right Rev of Lush
Good advice, Buz. Can you PM me the names to some of those online checker sites or just post them here?

BTW, one of the best 'tricks' I ever found for editing your own writing is to change and/or enlarge the font. This give the writing a 'new' look which can help spotting clunkers.
RUMPLATIONS: AwesomeHonky Tonk and Cyber Bar
Home of the Lush "IN" crowd: indecent, intoxicated, and insolvent
a place to gossip, share news, talk sports, pimp a story, piss & moan, or just grab a drink. Check it out.

Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwords. -- ROBERT HEINLEIN
Emerson501
Sultan of Smut
Great idea on changing the font! I've never heard of that but will be trying it today.
Check out my latest - a humorous collaboration with trinket and a Recommended Read
Buz
The Linebacker
Quote by RumpleForeskin
Good advice, Buz. Can you PM me the names to some of those online checker sites or just post them here?

BTW, one of the best 'tricks' I ever found for editing your own writing is to change and/or enlarge the font. This give the writing a 'new' look which can help spotting clunkers.



This is the one I like to use and I have it bookmarked. I have seen and tried others but this by far has been easiest to use and my favorite by a long shot.

http://www.reverso.net/spell-checker/english-spelling-grammar/

Rumpy, the font enlarging and change up is a good idea. Actually, that's one of my dyslexia combatting strategies. Thanks for posting that suggestion for people to try.
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Quote by Liz
I like adverbs but you have to be careful not to overuse them.

I think if you strip too many out you run the risk of making your story sterile, like a triple distilled shot of literature. The flipside is cramming the piece with so many that it ends up fat and fluffy.


A triple distilled shot of literature sounds awesome to me. I like minimalism AND bourbon. I still use too many adverbs, though.
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Quote by HeraTeleia


Side note: A huge personal pet peeve of mine is the overuse of commas. There's the "regular" comma, the Oxford comma, and aside from those, they shouldn't be in a piece. I've read many otherwise good or great pieces on this site wherein the author confuses a pause in thought with a need for a comma. If in doubt, lose the comma. Semicolons are your friend, not so much commas. Just my thoughts on the subject.


I overuse commas (as you are probably noticing even as I type this, Jen), but am getting better at it. I probably overuse semi-colons too, but I LOVE the effect: connecting two complete sentences together to show the relationship between them.

And I love Rumpy's idea of font size/style changes to see mistakes. Though reading it aloud helps a lot too.
RumpleForeskin
The Right Rev of Lush
Buz, many thanks for the link. I've made it a 'favorite' and look forward to giving it a whirl.

Verbal and Emerson: Glad I am you both like that idea of changing the font style and size to aid editing. And Verbal is, of course, approximately 100% right about reading out loud, especially when going over dialogue.
RUMPLATIONS: AwesomeHonky Tonk and Cyber Bar
Home of the Lush "IN" crowd: indecent, intoxicated, and insolvent
a place to gossip, share news, talk sports, pimp a story, piss & moan, or just grab a drink. Check it out.

Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwords. -- ROBERT HEINLEIN
Little_wanker
Advanced Wordsmith
Could someone post an example of the adverb / verb thing please. Before and after would help explain.
Emerson501
Sultan of Smut
An example of a weak verb and adverb would be to walk slowly. The combination of walk and slow is considered weak because a six-year-old could write those words.

Instead of describing the walk as slow, consider using a 'stronger' verb which doesn't need a description, like meander or stroll.

One side note: all of the above can depend on the context of the story. In this instance, is it a couple on a beach? In that case, yes, walking is weak as hell. Or, is your protagonist recovering from a car crash that's left him bound to a wheelchair? Possibly walking isn't so weak in that scenario? Probably it still is, but not necessarily if the word resonates with the history of the story. This side note is a better example of the wishy-washy nature of the adverb conundrum - it always depends. Or at least usually ;)
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RumpleForeskin
The Right Rev of Lush
Excellent examples and advice, Emerson.

On a site for the blind I infest, someone posted the link to a 'free' Windows 10 PC app that provides a 'Text to Speech' function that lets you hear another voice reading your story, which can, as several folks have mentioned, really help with editing.

Odds are the link won't work, so you'll have to copy and paste the URL to this 'WindowsCentral.com' article.

http://www.windowscentral.com/readaloud-windows-10-app-review

No promises. Just passing this along in case someone is interested.
RUMPLATIONS: AwesomeHonky Tonk and Cyber Bar
Home of the Lush "IN" crowd: indecent, intoxicated, and insolvent
a place to gossip, share news, talk sports, pimp a story, piss & moan, or just grab a drink. Check it out.

Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwords. -- ROBERT HEINLEIN
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Quote by Little_wanker
Could someone post an example of the adverb / verb thing please. Before and after would help explain.


Original: She walked across the room to him and began untying his tie suggestively. "Kiss me," she said, and kissed him.

Not enough specifics to visualize the scene. Walked, untying and kissed are boring verbs. Suggestively is using an adverb to tell the reader instead of showing them.

Rewrite: She sauntered across the thick push carpeting toward him, her smile broadening with each step. She grabbed his tie in her fist and pulled him closer. "Kiss me," she cooed, and without waiting for a response pressed her lips against his.
Emerson501
Sultan of Smut
Giggidy on the rewrite, verbal
Check out my latest - a humorous collaboration with trinket and a Recommended Read