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Competition Winners leaving the site

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Quote by Magical_felix


I'lll never admit when I am high, shit posting.

But I will concede that sometimes I type in cursive, just because*, not because I'm high or anything like that.





All the words in my head are comic sans for some reason...Also random but for some reason my cat's refuse to watch Felix the cat when I have it playing and every time I see your avatar I end up recalling me deciding to introduce them to all my favourite's and them hissing and running.
Quote by vanessa26





All the words in my head are comic sans for some reason...Also random but for some reason my cat's refuse to watch Felix the cat when I have it playing and every time I see your avatar I end up recalling me deciding to introduce them to all my favourite's and them hissing and running.





It would be a lie if I said reading that didn't make me smirk. Especially the comic sans... same

Your cats are smart. Listen to them.
Bumping up other entries is not viable. As stated, it wasn't earned.

The problem is that an author has that right to be forgotten so by keeping their stories around against their express wishes is legal hot water. The Ts and Cs about granting the site usage for 12 months probably won't fly if it was contested against GDPR, for example. Not sure. Don't know any lawyers.

Probably the best option, on deletion, is to reassign any comp title and author to a placeholder user account or stash the metadata in some placeholder table. Then, when rendering the comp lists, if a real entry is missing, look it up in the placeholder table so the name and title can be preserved, with no link to the actual story. Maybe a (story deleted by author) line as explanation.

That also makes it possible to manually add the few entries that have been deleted already to this database table to backfill the existing gaps. We know all winners as they're announced in a forum thread so it shouldn't be too onerous as a one-time exercise.

Please browse my digital bookshelf. In this collection, you can find 125 full stories, 10 micro-stories, and 3 poems with the following features:


* 30 Editor's Picks, 82 Recommended Reads.
* 16 competition podium places, 11 other times in the top ten.
* 23 collaborations.
* A whole heap of often filthy, tense, hot sex.

Quote by Magical_felix


2 PMs sent.

Anyone else?


I would say sure BUT... I have a headache.
Quote by WannabeWordsmith
Bumping up other entries is not viable. As stated, it wasn't earned.

The problem is that an author has that right to be forgotten so by keeping their stories around against their express wishes is legal hot water. The Ts and Cs about granting the site usage for 12 months probably won't fly if it was contested against GDPR, for example. Not sure. Don't know any lawyers.


I agree an author has the right to be forgotten but if they willingly enter a competition where the rules state Lushstories reserves the right to publish the top 3 stories even after membership lapses then it can still be published. You can't pull every print copy of an anthology so why should you be able to do it digitally?

By entering the competition and taking the prize money, you should have to abide by the rules.

My 200th story.. a young nurse gets down on her knees for an older man to make his day

Quote by deviantsusie
if they willingly enter a competition where the rules state Lushstories reserves the right to publish the top 3 stories even after membership lapses then it can still be published.


I agree, totally. If our terms stand up against the laughable right to be forgotten law, which is neither well thought out, nor enforceable, then that's grand. As an example of how stupid the law is, I just quoted you. If you delete your account right now, my quote still remains as a matter of public record and is attributed to you. To truly be forgotten you'd need to hunt down every person who quoted you on a forum, every person who downloaded any story you wrote, or copied a line of text you wrote, and so forth. A joke!

Even if our Ts and Cs remain binding for publication after an author exercises their right to delete, we'd still need a system in place for after that N month period. So something like I suggested (or an equivalent) where people's names and winning story titles are ferreted away for retrieval on official competition pages, would still be required.

Please browse my digital bookshelf. In this collection, you can find 125 full stories, 10 micro-stories, and 3 poems with the following features:


* 30 Editor's Picks, 82 Recommended Reads.
* 16 competition podium places, 11 other times in the top ten.
* 23 collaborations.
* A whole heap of often filthy, tense, hot sex.

Quote by WannabeWordsmith


I agree, totally. If our terms stand up against the laughable right to be forgotten law, which is neither well thought out, nor enforceable, then that's grand. As an example of how stupid the law is, I just quoted you. If you delete your account right now, my quote still remains as a matter of public record and is attributed to you. To truly be forgotten you'd need to hunt down every person who quoted you on a forum, every person who downloaded any story you wrote, or copied a line of text you wrote, and so forth. A joke!



I am on a forum for admins of Xenforo forum software (which I use to run a site I am on) and GDPR is a topic that comes up with irritating regularity. Some European admins actually expect Xenforo to come up with a way to literally remove all the quotes. Their spam blaster will remove the user account and all their posts, but quotes remain. And that's probably good enough, which is Xenforo's attitude (and they are a UK company so subject to GDPR themselves).

On topic, it is fairly easy to leave without having your stories disappear. Put in a strong random password and change your email to a dummy account (e.g. an alias that can be easily deleted). Delete the dummy account. That will keep you from easily returning if the temptation arises since you can't reset the password without the email. Then remove your avatar and profile details. You can even put a blog or other message up saying you're gone and good luck, y'all. Deactivate is an option, but with all this in place, may not be necessary. And your stories remain up and you can pop in as a lurker to see how they are doing.

Yes, I have thought about this a lot. Though if I go, it may be silently. Just do the password and dummy email part and that's it. Basically quietly slip away.
Quote by WannabeWordsmith


I agree, totally. If our terms stand up against the laughable right to be forgotten law, which is neither well thought out, nor enforceable, then that's grand. As an example of how stupid the law is, I just quoted you. If you delete your account right now, my quote still remains as a matter of public record and is attributed to you. To truly be forgotten you'd need to hunt down every person who quoted you on a forum, every person who downloaded any story you wrote, or copied a line of text you wrote, and so forth. A joke!

Even if our Ts and Cs remain binding for publication after an author exercises their right to delete, we'd still need a system in place for after that N month period. So something like I suggested (or an equivalent) where people's names and winning story titles are ferreted away for retrieval on official competition pages, would still be required.


But the right to be forgotten shouldn't apply when you sign something giving away your right.

For example, if I make a film and an actor signs a release form and I film them and record their voice and performance, they can't change their mind and demand I take the film down and delete everything. They granted me the right to use them in the film.
If the author grants lush the right to keep the winning entries, they can't delete it.
If they want to be forgotten, then don't enter the competition then it won't ever arise.

And yes, there would need to be a competition winner account which stores a duplicate of the story which gets published if the author deletes the story/account.

My 200th story.. a young nurse gets down on her knees for an older man to make his day

Quote by deviantsusie
But the right to be forgotten shouldn't apply when you sign something giving away your right.


I'd like to think so! I'm not sure the Eurocrats concur, but as I say, I'm not a lawyer. I would think we'd probably be okay and have a good case if the terms and conditions state that Lush can exploit the work any way they wish for a given period after the publication date. Depends if the right to be forgotten supersedes anything that came before it because you could claim that _at the time of signing the waiver_ you weren't of sound mind or that, now, personal situations have changed.

Quote by seeker4
Some European admins actually expect Xenforo to come up with a way to literally remove all the quotes.


Haha! Good luck with that.

Quote by seeker4
it is fairly easy to leave without having your stories disappear... change your email to a dummy account... Delete the dummy account... remove your avatar and profile details.


Yeah, that would work, provided your intention behind leaving is not because you're somehow embarrassed to have written them or someone has found out and linked your real life persona with your secret Lush life and has threatened you in some way. People can be dicks, and I think that's the primary motivation behind the daft laws (even though they're ill-conceived).

Please browse my digital bookshelf. In this collection, you can find 125 full stories, 10 micro-stories, and 3 poems with the following features:


* 30 Editor's Picks, 82 Recommended Reads.
* 16 competition podium places, 11 other times in the top ten.
* 23 collaborations.
* A whole heap of often filthy, tense, hot sex.

Quote by WannabeWordsmith


Yeah, that would work, provided your intention behind leaving is not because you're somehow embarrassed to have written them or someone has found out and linked your real life persona with your secret Lush life and has threatened you in some way.



Well, that would be the one case where I might delete, though more likely I would just come clean about being on here and deal with the consequences.
Sorry to be contrary, but I think there's a case to be made that the writer should have control of their own material. Stipulating that it has to stay on the site for up to a year is fine. Even five years, if it's stipulated up front. But author's rights should return to the author eventually. Publication rights to the story should not be held in perpetuity by Lush. The writer of the story should be able to do what they like with it.
Quote by Verbal
Sorry to be contrary, but I think there's a case to be made that the writer should have control of their own material. Stipulating that it has to stay on the site for up to a year is fine. Even five years, if it's stipulated up front. But author's rights should return to the author eventually. Publication rights to the story should not be held in perpetuity by Lush. The writer of the story should be able to do what they like with it.



i control everything. including you.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

Quote by sprite
i control everything. including you.


Control of one's life is the biggest lie the devil ever told. You don't get a choice to be born or not and you don't get a choice to die or not. Everything else in-between is often determined by our reactions to others or by how others react to our actions. Too many people and too many variables in-between birth and death to control our destiny.
Meagan
Quote by sprite


i control everything. including you.


As well you should! You are the Empress of Everything No Matter How Meager. You are the depth of space, the twinkle of the stars, the sun that the lowly planets orbit in humble obedience to your divinity. You are the wind in the trees, the scent of wildflowers, the taste of raindrops. You are all of nature distilled into a living god, pure and unadulterated perfection. We are blessed to worship you with blind obedience.

(Did I get all that right, sprite? You spilled your wine on the note and some of the words were kinda blurry)
Quote by WannabeWordsmith
Bumping up other entries is not viable. As stated, it wasn't earned.

The problem is that an author has that right to be forgotten so by keeping their stories around against their express wishes is legal hot water. The Ts and Cs about granting the site usage for 12 months probably won't fly if it was contested against GDPR, for example. Not sure. Don't know any lawyers.

Probably the best option, on deletion, is to reassign any comp title and author to a placeholder user account or stash the metadata in some placeholder table. Then, when rendering the comp lists, if a real entry is missing, look it up in the placeholder table so the name and title can be preserved, with no link to the actual story. Maybe a (story deleted by author) line as explanation.

That also makes it possible to manually add the few entries that have been deleted already to this database table to backfill the existing gaps. We know all winners as they're announced in a forum thread so it shouldn't be too onerous as a one-time exercise.



I do miss some of the stories that have gone, rereading them has and I am sure would continue to make me a better writer.

I so agree that promoting stories is not the answer, it would feel totally unearned for my Rainbows entry to bump up to 4th cos FuzzyBlue left and then onto the podium if Tam and Rach should ever leave.

But by the same token, I personally couldn't delete my account as I couldn't delete my stories, particularly Oxford Street. I don't think of that story as mine anymore; as illustrated by the comments, I now think it belongs to those who read it and were inspired by it. The notion that a story good enough to win the Pride competition can just disappear is not something I am comfortable with. And while I, by entering the competition, granted the site 12 months usage of it as far as I am concerned that lasts as long as Lush lasts.

For me preserving the words is more important then preserving the author's name. As a writer the why were they on the podium is more inspirational than who was on the podium.

Do check out my latest story:

Festive Flash competition: The Ghost of Christmas Past

And my other stories, including 5 EPs, 24 RR's, and 15 competition top 10's including my pride competition winner: On Oxford Street, This Gay Girl Found Pride While Playing With Balls

Quote by Verbal
Sorry to be contrary, but I think there's a case to be made that the writer should have control of their own material. Stipulating that it has to stay on the site for up to a year is fine. Even five years, if it's stipulated up front. But author's rights should return to the author eventually. Publication rights to the story should not be held in perpetuity by Lush. The writer of the story should be able to do what they like with it.



That is correct. An author always retains the rights to the ownership of their stories.

A mechanism was meant to be put into place to make sure they were on site for 12 months as part of the competition rules (which writers accept when entering).

But even if we devise a system which keeps them on site for 12 months, what happens after that? They disappear, and we are stuck with the same problem.

As has been rightly said above, a 4th place or 5th place being bumped up doesn't sit so well as they weren't originally in the top 3 story judges' selections.

Which leaves us with a minor headache and is the reason it's been left like this, in a far from ideal state.

The only thing to do to make sure the competition story entries stayed on site for all to see, would be to require authors to allow us to publish the stories ad infinitum. Not just for 12 months. They retain the rights to their story, but it doesn't prevent us from keeping them published. They would be free to publish them wherever else they wanted.

If a writer has an issue with the latter, they shouldn't enter competitions here. We give writers exposure to millions of people. Their competition stories would probably not have been written were it not for the competitions being run.

Both writers and the site should benefit from us running competitions. Not one or the other. Generally the relationship is beneficial and works well. But our policy could probably do with a revision.
Quote by nicola
The only thing to do to make sure the competition story entries stayed on site for all to see, would be to require authors to allow us to publish the stories ad infinitum. Not just for 12 months. They retain the rights to their story, but it doesn't prevent us from keeping them published. They would be free to publish them wherever else they wanted.


I'd wager as long as we state that intent, it's fine for stories from now on. Old ones, not so sure as they were covered by the old terms.

If someone does delete, to protect their anonymity, we should investigate a way to transfer the ownership to a "John/Jane Doe" account. Either a single account or, probably easier at the database level, is to simply do this when a person deletes:

1) Check if they have a competition entry. Up to us whether that is simply the fact they've merely entered or if they've placed/been an honourable mention. I would suggest the former is easier from a coding standpoint, as the honourable mentions are only listed in a forum post and not linked to the author's database record.

2) If they have no competition entries, delete their account. Bye bye.

3) If they have competition entries, don't delete their account. Instead:
a) Rename the account to JohnDoe-10248711 or JaneDoe-12871632 (with the numbers either being random or based on the time of deletion or something).
b) Delete all their story records except those with the 'competition' flag.
c) Clear out all profile settings and such-like.
d) Delete all forum posts/group chats/emails/blah blah linked to the account.
e) Set the account email to no-reply@lushstories.com or somesuch.
f) Set the account password to a ridiculously long cryptographic string so nobody can use the account (short of an admin resetting the password).

Done. Anonymity is preserved. Competition stories are preserved. The comp list still remains fully populated, even though the 'winner' is listed as a John/Jane doe account. Nobody can hack it to reset the password as they don't have access to the email account.

The only thing left to do then is to decide what to do with the current crop of deleted comp stories. If they've been up long enough for the Wayback Machine to archive them, it might be possible to resurrect them and manually create a John/Jane Doe account to house them. This'll be subject to how much hassle it is vs whether we feel that preserving the stories is worth the potential arguments if someone says "but you only said it was yours for 12 months".

EDIT: The only other issue with keeping them around is ownership contesting. What if someone on another site rips a comp story off Lush and presents it to their story site as "This is my own work". If the site does plagiarism checks and they come here to request if Jane Doe-8236236 (no-reply@lushstories.com) is the same author as the one being presented, how do we prove it's been ripped off or it is indeed the original author who has moved their stories elsewhere?

This also goes for what Verbal mentioned - if someone wants to pull a comp story because they want to sell it or have gone mainstream, and their publisher has stipulated it can't appear anywhere else on the Internet, then they'll have to get in touch with us directly, prove they're the real author somehow, and we'll have to delete the story (but keep the John/Jane Doe account) and simply list the entry as "missing" on the comp results page.

Please browse my digital bookshelf. In this collection, you can find 125 full stories, 10 micro-stories, and 3 poems with the following features:


* 30 Editor's Picks, 82 Recommended Reads.
* 16 competition podium places, 11 other times in the top ten.
* 23 collaborations.
* A whole heap of often filthy, tense, hot sex.

I am unlikely to post any stories from Lush anywhere else, save maybe if I am going to self-publish them in a e-book or something. So I personally have no problem with the idea of giving a perpetual license to Lush for any comp winners I have (I haven't been in the top 3 yet so it is still hypothetical for me).
Quote by Meagananne1986


Control of one's life is the biggest lie the devil ever told. You don't get a choice to be born or not and you don't get a choice to die or not. Everything else in-between is often determined by our reactions to others or by how others react to our actions. Too many people and too many variables in-between birth and death to control our destiny.


you do know that i am the devil, yeah?

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

Quote by sprite


you do know that i am the devil, yeah?





As Worf said, "You are not Fek'lhr!" The devil is not soft and cuddly. More like a cute panda who will rip your head off if you cross her!"
Meagan
Quote by nicola


That is correct. An author always retains the rights to the ownership of their stories.

A mechanism was meant to be put into place to make sure they were on site for 12 months as part of the competition rules (which writers accept when entering).

But even if we devise a system which keeps them on site for 12 months, what happens after that? They disappear, and we are stuck with the same problem.

As has been rightly said above, a 4th place or 5th place being bumped up doesn't sit so well as they weren't originally in the top 3 story judges' selections.

Which leaves us with a minor headache and is the reason it's been left like this, in a far from ideal state.

The only thing to do to make sure the competition story entries stayed on site for all to see, would be to require authors to allow us to publish the stories ad infinitum. Not just for 12 months. They retain the rights to their story, but it doesn't prevent us from keeping them published. They would be free to publish them wherever else they wanted.

If a writer has an issue with the latter, they shouldn't enter competitions here. We give writers exposure to millions of people. Their competition stories would probably not have been written were it not for the competitions being run.

Both writers and the site should benefit from us running competitions. Not one or the other. Generally the relationship is beneficial and works well. But our policy could probably do with a revision.



Please don't get me wrong, I love the comps, and they got me lots more reads and lots of exposure. It gets people excited about writing! And any time stipulation stated up front would be fair, because a writer would know the terms going in.

But I don't think a blank contest win spot is a huge deal, particularly on a site where turnover is high, due to the subject matter of the site. There are several legit reasons for wanting a story taken down. I doubt I would have entered a comp if the conditions were the story could never be removed.

As long as you stipulate the conditions up front, it's fair. But for a site that is centered around writing, I think you should err on the side of being writer friendly.



That said, as long as you stipulate
I agree it looks a bit awkward when a Comp Winner/Place leaves but I'm not sure I have a better idea than how it is handled now. Personally I would not be interested in moving from the Top 10 to a Top 3 just because someone chose to leave or delete a story.
A compromise might be links to the Top Ten instead of an empty space.
Quote by nicola
It is annoying when members who have placed in competitions leave.

I asked Gav if he could make it so that their stories remain, however he said that a story requires a corresponding database member entry or there's nothing to hook it to. Something along those lines.

I'll ask him to take a look at it again once he's made the site transition in the next fortnight or so.

It looks untidy apart from anything else.

We discussed another option of moving everyone else's stories up a place should it happen, but it became too complicated.


Would it be possible to create an account in that account-holder's name, and transferring just their stories without retaining any further details?

The rules can be modified accordingly.

Just a suggestion ...