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The Quality of Stories and Poems

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MrNudiePants
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Quote by avrgblkgrl
Where to start...
SMH
Naw, I better leave this one alone and blow bubbles.


Is it too late to change my name to "Bubbles"?
PervyStoryteller
Active Ink Slinger
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I understand that the suggestion is hypothetical, but this, for what it's worth, is my take on it.

The implication in the proposal is that quality equals popularity, which would probably be disputed by all but the most extreme postmodernists among professors of literature.

My own tastes often run to the unpopular or overlooked, and so on a personal level I would be disappointed to see stories disappear for not gathering the requisite number of reads/scores/comments - hell, whole genres would probably disappear. Nor am I a snob in this. Some extremely well written stuff bores me, and some stuff which is obviously not great has some spirit about it that attracts me anyway.

Were such a suggestion to be followed through, it's easy to imagine Lush becoming like Top 40 radio, which is fine if you like the hits, but not so great if you want to be surprised from time to time. Also, there's a real risk that authors would start tailoring their work to quickly acquire reads/scores/comments, which would lead to a significant (and in my view wholly regrettable) mainstreaming of the whole enterprise. One of the great things about Lush is the variety, and I'd hate to see that lost.
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
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Quote by PervyStoryteller
I understand that the suggestion is hypothetical, but this, for what it's worth, is my take on it.

The implication in the proposal is that quality equals popularity, which would probably be disputed by all but the most extreme postmodernists among professors of literature.

My own tastes often run to the unpopular or overlooked, and so on a personal level I would be disappointed to see stories disappear for not gathering the requisite number of reads/scores/comments - hell, whole genres would probably disappear. Nor am I a snob in this. Some extremely well written stuff bores me, and some stuff which is obviously not great has some spirit about it that attracts me anyway.

Were such a suggestion to be followed through, it's easy to imagine Lush becoming like Top 40 radio, which is fine if you like the hits, but not so great if you want to be surprised from time to time. Also, there's a real risk that authors would start tailoring their work to quickly acquire reads/scores/comments, which would lead to a significant (and in my view wholly regrettable) mainstreaming of the whole enterprise. One of the great things about Lush is the variety, and I'd hate to see that lost.



Yes, this exactly. Some of the best finds here on Lush are tucked away in odd little corners (like Pervy, whom I am quoting above, a really talented writer), with 10 or 15 votes. Finding the unexpected is kind of the point of the site. Don't tailor it to suit the majority. Fuck the majority. Tailor it to be a place that welcomes the wild and unexpected tale, the desire you didn't even know you had until you read about it here. People come here to escape the mainstream, not be pushed into it.
VanGogh
Sarcastic Coffee Aficionado
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Quote by Verbal
Yes, this exactly. Some of the best finds here on Lush are tucked away in odd little corners (like Pervy, whom I am quoting above, a really talented writer), with 10 or 15 votes. Finding the unexpected is kind of the point of the site. Don't tailor it to suit the majority. Fuck the majority. Tailor it to be a place that welcomes the wild and unexpected tale, the desire you didn't even know you had until you read about it here. People come here to escape the mainstream, not be pushed into it.


Amen!!!

I know everyone wants to be the best .... most votes/scores ... most views ... most, most, most ... but I really revel in the well-written, hit my fancy, unadorned treasures that I have found here on Lush.

Though my opinion means zero to anyone ... I will take those exceptional stories that have been here long (or short) time, rarely read/scored, over the mainstream ANY day!!



Van xo
flytoomuch
Active Ink Slinger
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Well yes public taste is indeed a fickle thing. As for artistic judgment? Well who is qualified to ride that beast with any level of authority? I adore David Hockney....others write scathing reviews? Damien Hirst is built up into a cult by some influential monied collectors (who shall remain unnamed) and yet I find his work hollow and devoid of value although it sells for millions.

I find most of the "McSex stories" on Lush entirely uninteresting. Yet many of these stories with caricatures for characters get a ton of views and comments that sound like raving endorsements. What can I say? Art is not science.

I cannot tell you scientifically WHY Van Gogh is a genius. I just know that when I go to the National Gallery and stand in front of "Wheat Fields" it is just like an out-of-body experience. Can't articulate it. Can't explain it. Art sometimes acts like a form of "magic" capturing a moment, a time, the essence of something.

As a final point not all members on Lush are "scoring" for altruistic "artistic" reasons. My last comp entry garnered a "2" from some person? Really? Haha I claim no special insight into writing skill, but I do have enough discernment to know that on Lush this story is not a "2". Anyways interesting post. But like others have said, some of my favourite stories are not "popular" so I wouldn't want to see them gone.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Stats are easy to fake.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

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Katje
Buxom Enigma
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While interesting in theory, it's pretty much something that will never occur in reality. I've been following this, and also need to be counted among the "not pissed list" ... However, mildly irritated does apply.

Even the proposed idea of removing art (yes, art ... Dr Sprite and I concur on this) from the site just because it's been some time since submission and the views/votes don't equal to something someone seems ... worthy? I don't like it. Not as a mod, not as a reader, and for definitely sure not as a writer. There's no quantifiable way to show how much time was spent on any one poem/story. Some of mine takes minutes, hours, weeks,months ... and each are part of me.

Likewise, scoring a story based on it's written skill or eroticism just doesn't cut it with me. What I find erotic, you may not. Just because I find one story in a category arousing doesn't mean I find all stories there as titillating. Same with the writing style ... many writers, many different styles. I'll promise you that as a story mod, I see dozens--ne, hundreds--of different writing styles each month. And what I personally may deem an amazingly-constructed story ... the next person may think it's crap.

Where it can pose an interesting thought, the practicality of this makes it pointless. But it's been interesting reading other people's opinions, for sure!

(Ignore any nonsense: it's 4am and I haven't slept since 7am yesterday.)
"Good writing is supposed to evoke sensation in the reader - not the fact that it is raining, but the feeling of being rained upon." -E.L. Doctorow
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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The OP poses a very interesting question, one that given the responses here, calls into doubt the system of giving a story a score out of 5. If appreciation of art is entirely subjective why quantify it?

Aggregators like Digg or Reddit have developed complex algorithms to measure and predict popularity based on content and user-interaction. All these really do is measure popularity rather than quality, for the eventual purpose of targeting advertising.

Of course it can be argued that popularity and quality tend to go hand in hand. However our own experience often shows that good writers are sometimes ignored and that some writers who we may find personally not to our taste are baffling successful here. In very general terms though, the best writers are often the most popular. WH Auden got it right when he said "Some books are undeservedly forgotten; none are undeservedly remembered."

Of course higher quality is what all writers should be aiming for, but I'd argue that popularity is more important for the site. Popular stories expand the site, bring new readers and, most importantly, new authors. Maybe there is a way of using popularity metrics here as long as we're always conscious that they don't imply quality.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
angieseroticpen
Story Verifier
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Quote by Will_greybeard


To maintain the high quality of Lush, it might be that stories and poems should be removed after a decent interval of time, say 9 months if they failed any of these criteria:
1. Fewer than 3,000 reads for a story or 100 reads for a poem
2. Fewer than 30 scores for a story or 10 scores for a poem
3. Average score below 4


That's a bit harsh isn't it! Someone's creative work and effort being tossed aside just like that! We already have quality control and if their work is published then it has met the only criteria necessary, IMO. If we ever used science to measure the value of any creative art form then most of our art galleries, libraries and museums would have been shut down years ago.
“When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.”
Buz
The Linebacker
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As a story verifier I can testify that we already have a damn good quality control system. Y'all wouldn't believe the number of stories that we reject. We try our best to inform the author of what they need to do in order to edit and improve their story so that it meets our standards. They can then edit and rewrite so that their story is good enough to resubmit.

Because Lushstories is aimed at amateur writers we have set the bar high but still attainable for the beginning short story and poem writer. It is up to you as writers to push yourselves to improve. On Lush you have access to many writers who have honed their writing skills to a high level. You can glean what you can from their work and also ask your fellow writers to help you with ideas and thoughts to make your own better, so that you may grow as a writer.

I would vehemently oppose the deletion of older stories or any stories, already approved for lack of popularity or any other reason such. I believe that would create a negative and hostile atmosphere, destroy morale and be counter productive to this site.

Popularity of stories can depend upon several factors. Quality is often one of them but not always. Some stories may be popular because of the level at which they are written. We have stories written in great depth that appeals to many readers and for some it is the simplicity. Yes, we can look at popular culture as an example. In pop music, certainly there are mega hit songs that have little musical depth. But so it is. That is life. On the other hand there are many mega hits that exhibit great musical depth and originality.

Making tweaks, every now and then, to a successful venture may be good, but such major changes as suggested, in my meager opinion, could be a catastrophic mistake to a popular site like Lushstories. Lushstories has used this certain format to bring it this far, why crack the foundation now? It also would narrow the type of people reading this site, creating a much lower viewership. That result could easily be that the site is no longer affordable and Nicola would have to take it down.

And as it was said already, there are some gems of stories here that don't have that many votes, views or have not scored well for various reasons. Part of the fun of Lush is exploring the site for enjoyable reading.
Guest
Lurker
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Quote by angieseroticpen


That's a bit harsh isn't it! Someone's creative work and effort being tossed aside just like that! We already have quality control and if their work is published then it has met the only criteria necessary, IMO. If we ever used science to measure the value of any creative art form then most of our art galleries, libraries and museums would have been shut down years ago.


I was posing a hypothetical question which has generated a lot of serious discussion. The nature of the answers is in itself proof the Lush has just about got it right.
Guest
Lurker
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Quote by Buz
As a story verifier I can testify that we already have a damn good quality control system. Y'all wouldn't believe the number of stories that we reject. We try our best to inform the author of what they need to do in order to edit and improve their story so that it meets our standards. They can then edit and rewrite so that their story is good enough to resubmit.

Because Lushstories is aimed at amateur writers we have set the bar high but still attainable for the beginning short story and poem writer. It is up to you as writers to push yourselves to improve. On Lush you have access to many writers who have honed their writing skills to a high level. You can glean what you can from their work and also ask your fellow writers to help you with ideas and thoughts to make your own better, so that you may grow as a writer.

I would vehemently oppose the deletion of older stories or any stories, already approved for lack of popularity or any other reason such. I believe that would create a negative and hostile atmosphere, destroy morale and be counter productive to this site.

Popularity of stories can depend upon several factors. Quality is often one of them but not always. Some stories may be popular because of the level at which they are written. We have stories written in great depth that appeals to many readers and for some it is the simplicity. Yes, we can look at popular culture as an example. In pop music, certainly there are mega hit songs that have little musical depth. But so it is. That is life. On the other hand there are many mega hits that exhibit great musical depth and originality.

Making tweaks, every now and then, to a successful venture may be good, but such major changes as suggested, in my meager opinion, could be a catastrophic mistake to a popular site like Lushstories. Lushstories has used this certain format to bring it this far, why crack the foundation now? It also would narrow the type of people reading this site, creating a much lower viewership. That result could easily be that the site is no longer affordable and Nicola would have to take it down.

And as it was said already, there are some gems of stories here that don't have that many votes, views or have not scored well for various reasons. Part of the fun of Lush is exploring the site for enjoyable reading.


My question was purely hypothetical, and based on the scientific premise that you try to prove that something is not true, a line of enquiry that is not widely understood by non scientists. The discussion has been very interesting, and mainly serious, and of a quality that was not always true of my tutorials. The responses, I believe, show that Lush has just about got it right, thanks in no small way to the moderators.
Guest
Lurker
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I'm sorry if my hypothetical question offended other authors, and even more so, the moderators. That was not my intention, and I apologise for appearing to be unduly harsh, and perhaps even arrogant. As a scientist, my research was as much about disproving a hypothesis, which is why I posed the question in the way I did. I have also taught at Masters level for many years, and in tutorials I would be deliberately provocative as this would force the students to think more deeply, whereas a simpler question would often only elicit a superficial answer. I have been gratified by the serious way the subject of my question has been approached, and the results would seem to indicate that the system of verification works extremely well, and doesn't need improvement. But I feel that if I had just posed the question to ask what it was that people liked in stories I don't think the quality of discussion would have been anything like as deep.

As an amateur author, I am extremely critical of my own work, and I am rarely contented with what I have written. As far as the style is concerned I attempt to write good clear English, with a strong story line, and characters with whom the readers can identify. But there are many far better writers than me, and I do my best to learn from their stories, in an attempt to improve my own output. I am a perfectionist in everything that I do, which can become a rod for my own back, but that is how I am.

Of course, having successfully alienated everyone, other authors and moderators alike, it is likely that in future I will receive a big thumbs down, but that is perhaps no more than I deserve, and it is possible that I have inadvertently delivered the kiss of death to my writing career.
Stormdog
Gentleman Stranger
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Quote by Katje
While interesting in theory, it's pretty much something that will never occur in reality. I've been following this, and also need to be counted among the "not pissed list" ... However, mildly irritated does apply.

Even the proposed idea of removing art (yes, art ... Dr Sprite and I concur on this) from the site just because it's been some time since submission and the views/votes don't equal to something someone seems ... worthy? I don't like it. Not as a mod, not as a reader, and for definitely sure not as a writer. There's no quantifiable way to show how much time was spent on any one poem/story. Some of mine takes minutes, hours, weeks,months ... and each are part of me.

Likewise, scoring a story based on it's written skill or eroticism just doesn't cut it with me. What I find erotic, you may not. Just because I find one story in a category arousing doesn't mean I find all stories there as titillating. Same with the writing style ... many writers, many different styles. I'll promise you that as a story mod, I see dozens--ne, hundreds--of different writing styles each month. And what I personally may deem an amazingly-constructed story ... the next person may think it's crap.

Where it can pose an interesting thought, the practicality of this makes it pointless. But it's been interesting reading other people's opinions, for sure!

(Ignore any nonsense: it's 4am and I haven't slept since 7am yesterday.)




Quote by Will_greybeard

Of course, having successfully alienated everyone, other authors and moderators alike, it is likely that in future I will receive a big thumbs down, but that is perhaps no more than I deserve, and it is possible that I have inadvertently delivered the kiss of death to my writing career.


I think I have to concur with what Katje says. One of the most fascinating things I've seen in the short time I've been moderating stories is that some stories, which may not appeal to me at all as I read them, are nonetheless very well-written and when posted quickly find an audience. Others are not as well-written but are on topics which I find appealing, and I'm able to enjoy them for that reason, even as we work with the authors to improve their craft. It proves the old adage that one man's trash is another man's treasure, I suppose, and I, for one, would not care to tackle the job of sorting the treasure from the trash. Beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. (And I'll stop speaking in clichés now...)

Will, as far as your writing you have no reason for concern; you invariably write fascinating, well-crafted stories, and your readers (me among them) will continue to enjoy them. I very much doubt that anyone here is interested in beating you up or giving you a thumbs down for tossing out an idea or expressing an opinion! You just keep doing what you do, my friend, and the rest of us will continue to enjoy it. And don't let conflicting opinions of others worry you too much - that's what some of these forums are for, after all!
LaylaJune
Fancy Schmancy
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Quote by Will_greybeard
First of all - my apologies to every one that I have pissed off, which is almost everybody. Just put it down to pre senile dementia. Elizabeth said I should say I was just a bit touched by the sun, but those of you who know anything about Manchester would know that water on the brain would be more likely. I will now go and crawl into a big hole in the ground for a few months, unless someone can come up with a suitable penance.


Kudos to you for printing a retraction so soon! You show true strength of character (in my humble yet vocal opinion). Plus, I really hated your idea!
Guest
Lurker
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There is a usually a story or poem on Lush for everyone. I have seen an uptick in quality since I became a member. I choose high-end dinner rolls over the stale bread of the usual story sites.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by LaylaJune


Kudos to you for printing a retraction so soon! You show true strength of character (in my humble yet vocal opinion). Plus, I really hated your idea!


Because conformity is so much better than innovation.

No one should ever have to apologise for having ideas about the site they contribute to. His idea may not be great but that doesn't mean someone else might not take that idea, shake it up and come out with something not only innovative but popular too.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
HeraTeleia
Top Shot
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As several others have said, Lush maintains the highest quality and strictest anti-plagiarism controls of any literary erotica site on the Internet. Period. As to your specific suggestion that stories and poems should be judged on "level of eroticism", I don't really understand how that would be objective and not subjective. I certainly don't think that any story or poem should be pulled or killed by the site just because it fails to garner enough views or because its score falls below X number.

Now, on a personal level, I would kill a story or poem of my own that fell below the 4.8 mark and remained below that mark for 7 days. That's just me--I don't want people to see something that obviously isn't doing its job, which is to bring pleasure to the reader. Would/could I pull that trigger on someone else's piece of work? No. Never. What turns me on might--and surely would--vary wildly from what turns someone else on.

The other thing to remember is, unless I am wildly mistaken, that all of the moderators and story verifiers are volunteers. Where would they find the time to go back through already-approved stories and poems just to check page views and scores, and how often would you expect them to do it? My understanding is that there is usually a queue of submissions to plow through anyway, and it's not like that queue of new submissions would shrink relative to the already-approved stories that you think should be re-evaluated for quality.
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Arxe
Active Ink Slinger
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I think it's up to the original poster whether it be idea or story, and it's fine to support the decision either way.

Just because feedback makes you change your mind is no bearing on your conformity.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
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Quote by Will_greybeard


My question was purely hypothetical, and based on the scientific premise that you try to prove that something is not true, a line of enquiry that is not widely understood by non scientists. The discussion has been very interesting, and mainly serious, and of a quality that was not always true of my tutorials. The responses, I believe, show that Lush has just about got it right, thanks in no small way to the moderators.


I understand that your post was purely hypothetical and approached it as such. I don't think you need to apologize, as it's purely valid debate.

Danielle x

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Buz
The Linebacker
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Will, where I work we are constantly talking ideas. The vast majority get picked apart but sometimes we do hit on a gem. Everyone is supposed to put forward ideas. Our system won't there work without that, so we grow a thick skin about getting them tossed, torn apart, changed, killed or whatever. There is nothing wrong with putting forward ideas. Any creative idea person will probably tell you that they go through a lot of ideas before they come up the the real winner. There is no need at all for you to feel like you have to apologize for anything.
LarsKaiden
Active Ink Slinger
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Some of what I consider to be my best work is the least read, and some of my run-of-the-mill stories get tons of views and loads of comments for no apparent reason. Having been an author on here for over five years, I can tell you that at least part of the popularity of particular story comes down to the luck of the draw. Of course, there are important factors such as the author's following, the genre, the appeal of the title, the opening sentences, the one-liner description, the keywords, as well as how many other similar stories are published at the same time. In any case, I'm always jubilant when someone finds one of my old stories (or poems) that has hardly been read and makes a positive comment. It just wouldn't make any sense to start trying to apply numerical or other logic to try filtering out the good from the bad. Aside from anything else, what one reader appreciates is not necessarily the same as another. Writers have their styles and readers have their tastes. Let it be!
ChuckEPoo
Chuckanator
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I don't think this is very scientific but Buz had great advice. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

I can only use myself as an example. Just recently I deleted much of my early work because it was just plain awful. However, those stories were stepping stones. The truly accomplished authors and poets here don't need to be named. Their work speaks for itself.
Coconut_Joe
Rookie Scribe
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Quote by Will_greybeard

very interesting, and mainly serious, and of a quality that was not always true of my tutorials. The responses, I believe, show that Lush has just about got it right, thanks in no small way to the moderators.


This is in my opinion the worst conclusion that one could draw from the response given. Nearly every single response has been given by a long time member who is firmly invested in the current way that Lush is currently run. (for better or worse)

What you purposed was very Darwinist. Survival of the fittest. Now I have no idea as to the quality of the "quality control" already in place, but as I have submitted my first story to Lush, I am bound to find out.

What the responses do tell you is that the vocal establishment is quite happy with the way things are, and that in general the consensus is that once a story makes it through the initial quality control mechanisms it should not be removed or held hostage to arbitrary reasons. Such as public opinion.

A sentiment I personally agree with. But in a system where you have voting/scoring of stories and the like, the odds of the trash sinking to the bottom is rather inevitable.

Of course, one must look at the popularity of any of the sub genres before attempting classify the quality of a story off of any scoring in a quantitative measure should such a proposal be implemented.