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BlueEyes031886
Over 90 days ago
Straight Male, 38
United States

Forum

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I love the responses in here. I wish I could have a direct conversation with every one of you! As for true love, I think Aristotle actually has a lot to offer, saying that we must first be friends, and that being friend means to wish for and do good for the other for their own sake, as opposed to doing good for them in order to gain some benefit for ourselves. My general story:

I grew up in a home that was pretty severely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Like it or not, it shaped what I thought it meant to receive love and to give love,as everyone's environment does. I used to have a hard time relating this to people who grew up in a home that nurtured their basic human self. I think people take for granted that they weren't raised to believe they are an insult to the universe, or even to question their self worth.

The first time I thought I was in love, I was just emotionally dependent on my partner. I was 16. Suicide was the plan after that one. The second time i thought I was in love, I was just an arrogant possessive prick out of boot camp supercharged with testosterone and thinking I had to die to prove my love. I lost her quick. Martyrdom in Iraq was the plan after that one. Anyone who has done the research will tell you that, given my background, it was 10 times more likely that I would become abusive in my relationships, and that's what happened in both of these cases.

I spent the next 7 years of my life single... learning about myself, taking responsibility for my life, and dealing with my past.

A couple years ago I was dating a girl who I think I actually succeeded in loving. Unfortunately, I was not ready to be "in love". I tried to make the point to her that I was NOT ready to fall in love, that I was doing some serious internal work and often shared my progress with her, and frequently commented that I wasn't the idealized version of me that she saw. I wanted to know that she saw me for all of my strengths and all of my flaws. I couldn't get that point across to her in time and she left me. Ironically she left me because she thought I wanted to leave her, and even pointing out that I didn't seemed to only strengthen her conviction to not work things out. She had a thing about not contradicting herself or exposing her own errors. I was devastated. It was kind of weird that even after dating a short time we had connected so well that anywhere we went people assumed we had been together for 6 years. It felt like I had lost someone I was with for 6 years. As tragic as it was to lose her, it was a turning point for me. As a result of the heartache and everything I learned about myself I found closure about a lot of things that have happened in my life. I worry about her a lot. In any case, I had achieved what I set out to do, and that was to love her and myself, and care about what's good for both of us. Her for her own sake and me for my own sake. It was like the lonely years of my life leading up to that relationship were about becoming a better person so that I could be better for her. I think I still love her, although I don't know if I could ever date her again just because of how she ended things.

Two years later I'm still single although I have dated some friends, and I've begun volunteering as an advocate at a domestic violence shelter. Realizing how far I've come in my life I've started to consider that I may actually be worth loving, that it's now safe to love me, and that I may actually be capable of loving again. Until then, I'll just keep doing good in the world.
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by Kal-El85


Exactly! Male/Female relationships don't always have to end with sex. Just be happy you have a friend, man. Most times it's not even The Friend Zone. Sometimes, relationships are meant to be chaste and not taken to the sexual level. Other times emotional attachment outweighs the carnal wants. Friendship should be first on your brain. . .not just trying to take a woman to bed. If that's your only intention than you're (the guy who started this forum) pretty selfish.


Unfortunately, I always get my signals crossed. I meet a girl I want to be friends with and she was just looking to get laid and I didn't pick up on it until it was too late... or I meet a girl who just wants to be friends and I'm just looking to get laid.

Why would it be selfish, it's not like I'm out there trying to lead a girl on just to sleep with her. Can you honestly tell me that women never just want a good fuck and nothing more? Unfulfilling, I can agree with. I'd much rather meet someone with a deeper meaning to our relationship, but let's face it. I'm getting nowhere with anyone.
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by SereneProdigy
Another thing that annoys me about the term 'friend-zone' is that it holds a negative connotation and implies that ending up being friends with a girl is a complete failure. Hey, you can't accept to be just a friend with a lady, that's unacceptable and surely not manly ; just keep annoying her or stick around in a needy and pathetic manner, even though she's going to perceive you less and less as a strong, mature and independant man. In a way, those who fear the 'friend-zone' the most are probably those who are the most likely to fall into it. Those who don't bother will simply accept their 'friend' status, yet are still going to be perceived as respectable men by women. Such a man will also be considered a 'real friend' and not just a 'fake friend' that's acting with uncertain intentions.

Of course, you don't want to approach girls you're interested in only displaying a friendly attitude either. You have to somehow demonstrate that you have sexual desires too if you want them to see you as a potential romantic partner. That's another issue with guys who often complain getting 'friend-zoned' in my opinion ; they can't be upfront about their sexuality, yet start whinning when women perceive only friendly qualities in them.


Well said.
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by SereneProdigy


Whining helplessly about this situation will lead you absolutely nowhere, and will only affect negatively the image you have of yourself.



That's a whole issue in itself.

Quote by SereneProdigy


Concerning those who responded to you harshly, really, the way you portrayed ladies in your original post was a bit harsh and judgemental on its own. Some ladies here surely have been on the other side of the situation, and were most probably annoyed by the fact that they were perceived as 'evil manipulative bitches' just because they are generally polite enough not to tell a guy to 'fuck off' when he makes advances. Dealing with this situation, rejection, can be as awkward and difficult for them as it is for us men.



I don't want to admit that their perspective means anything because I have been used, manipulated, and lied to. Seems like it's my fault for "letting it happen" though.
Active Ink Slinger
I met someone who I finally thought was the perfect girl for me, and she decided to get back with her boyfriend because she felt she owed it to him and God, or some bullshit... guess that woulnd't have worked out very long anyways... where's her feminist friend when you need her... fuck
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Quote by Wango

"Omg, I'm nice to her! That means that she has to date or have sex with me!


HAHAHA . Good point, but you're still an asshole
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by sprite
funny, to me, if i guys in the 'friend zone' it means we're friends. i don't use him, i don't string him along, i am there for him when he needs me as much as he is there for me. i wasn't aware i being my friend was so much work! wow - you paint this picture of women as being just manipulative bitches - this might be why they aren't really interested in dating you, you know: they want to cause anguish in my life to know they have the ability to do so? wow.

btw, dating and being friends are two different animals. so, you're implying that anyone that is your friend should also be interested in dating you? just curious - are you willing to ask your male friends for a date under the same presumption? smile



I see where you are coming from. Unfortunately, I had been involved with some pretty manipulative people and I guess I just developed trust issues. I was the stereotypical white knight and ended up in a lot of bad relationships. That's why I'm here trying to get all of this worked out.

I guess I'm lost in my own point regarding dating and friendship... I see dating as a natural outgrowth of friendship, so I kind of felt like maybe I just wasn't a good enough friend, so I would do more and try to be a better friend and end up in a world of hurt. My fault, I know, but again, that's why I'm trying to gain some insight... not trying to claim my position is right. If I thought my perspective was absolutely correct, I wouldn't have posted in here looking for feedback.
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Quote by Poppet
I'm wondering why you thought it was necessary to make this SAME forum twice?



I found the relationship advice forum after the other one, and thought this was more appropriate place.
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by SereneProdigy


I'm not exactly sure if you're seeking any advice or just venting out, but I'll give you my opinion about the so-called 'friend-zone' anyway.

All the points you mentioned are partly true, yes. If you made a move on a girl and she shunned you (for reasons that are totally personal and that she really don't need to express), she's not gonna slap you in the face either or run away from you at the first opportunity. You basically just admitted to her (verbally or else) that she stands out from other girls to you and that you'd be ready to invest in her. Even if she doesn't want you as a lover, she will surely show some respect to a guy that just demonstrated a potential devotion ; having you around is also quite an ego-boost for her (which is perfectly natural and acceptable), as you mentioned in your 2 first points.

As for point #3, she really doesn't have to explain to you explicitly that she's not interested. If she refuses your advances, it pretty much implies that she's not interested ; that's just common sense. Again, she really doesn't have to justify herself ; she's a lady, remember?

Concerning point #4, although it's not totally impossible, most people are not that 'evil' and won't cause turmoil in others just for the fun of it. If she really is 'evil', why would you show any interest for her in the first place?

My point is this, and this concerns every guy, not just you :

Guys put themselves in the 'friend-zone' ; girls have nothing to do with it.

Let's reconsider your points :

1) You're offering emotional and moral support to a girl that doesn't feel like reciprocating
2) You're giving her attention and string yourself along
3) You don't have the courage to admit she's not interested, and move along
4) You want to stay close to someone that causes anguish in your life (wtf, really)

Again, if you keep acting like so, she's not gonna refuse you either because she's only collecting the advantageous side of the bargain ; a bargain you established.

Now there's a difference between being friend with a girl and being in her 'friend-zone'. If a girl refuses my advances but still wants me as a friend (a real friend that is, not a moron that sticks around), that's perfectly fine with me. Hell, I was ready to become her lover, why wouldn't I want to be her friend? Surely we have some thoughts or interests to share.

But then she'll only be a friend to me and will be treated as such. No special attention, no lovely compliments, no flowers, no ego-boost, no emotional investment, no moral support... nothing else than friendly exchanges. She doesn't want me as a lover and thinks someone else will provide that better than me, why exactly would she deserve any of this from me?

Of course I won't be totally mean to her. She also already figured out that I have some affection for her by now. But I really won't treat her as more special than any of my other friends (for which I also have a lot of affection anyway). If I do offer her attention or compliments, it will be done in a purely friendly manner, without any underlying intentions. All of this will be done equally to what she's offering me herself. And I surely won't be shy to demonstrate that I'm looking for other girls by now too.

Acting like I'm telling you now has many 'advantages' :

- This will keep you from feeling (or acting) like a needy man who strings along girls helplessly (not attractive to girls, really)
- This will show you that you can still have meaningful interactions with ladies even if you don't fuck them in the end
- This will actually tremendously help the girl you were initially seeking out to reconsider (for reasons that might be too long to explain)

So... if you still feel in the 'friend-zone', at least you'll be aware that this is your choice.

Me personally?

Did girls refuse my advances in the past? Of course.
Did I eventually become friend with some of those? Sure.
Was I ever in a girl's 'friend-zone'? Nope... and I don't think I'll ever be.


I genuinely appreciate the insight in this post, and I did a lot of reflecting today. I had suspicions that I was doing a lot of this to myself, but I couldn't seem to find all of the pieces I needed to get the whole picture, and this laid out a lot of it. Taking all of this into consideration and setting my own personal boundaries in a few friendships I was able to relieve a LOT of my stress over the situation.

And, for anyone that has a problem with me asking this question, or feeling the way I have I just want you to know that I'm not ashamed to have asked or to have felt what I felt. I'm doing the best that I can, and I don't care that I didn't meet your standards. If you have enough understanding to feel entitled to shame me, why wouldn't you just share that insight and help me grow instead of trying to drive me further into the ground with thoughtless insults?

There have been a lot of assumptions made about my character simply because I was frustrated over a situation in my life that I'm trying to grow past.
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i don't like this. I don't know this person well enough to trust or not trust them. Maybe I jumped in too fast.
Active Ink Slinger
I am personally offended by the friend zone. My personal experience with it is that someone I am interested in will put me "in the friend zone" for only a few reasons. In my experience, those reasons have been:

1) To have my emotional and moral support for them in their life without reciprocating
2) Wanting my attention and using the friend zone as a way to string me along and maintain that attention without making me a part of their life
3) They don't have the courage to say that they are just not interested
4) They want to cause anguish in my life to know they have the ability to do so

If they were really keen on being friends, they would have no problem dating, because it's really just an extension and deepening of friendship. Either that or we have vastly different ideas of what friends and dating are all about. Think