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Usage of 'their'

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SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
Greetings to all,

As some of you may know, English is not my first language and I sometimes struggle with some grammatical peculiarities.

I've been wondering about the proper usage of the possessive pronoun 'their', and if the following noun should use either the singular or plural form.

In my own language, if the 'subjects' each possess only one 'item', we would use the singular form. The plural form would imply that each 'subject' possesses more than one 'item'.


For example, we would say:

"The men removed their hat."

In my language, saying "The men removed their hats." would imply that each man had more than one hat (which would be rather illogical).


This is an obvious example, but the singular/plural form can be used for clarification in many other instances.

For example:

"The people were walking their dogs." would imply that each person had more than one dog.


Is it the same way it is used in English? Or is the plural form always used?

Thanks for the feedback!
Dirty_D
Head Nurse
Quote by SereneProdigy
Greetings to all,

As some of you may know, English is not my first language and I sometimes struggle with some grammatical peculiarities.

I've been wondering about the proper usage of the possessive pronoun 'their', and if the following noun should use either the singular or plural form.

In my own language, if the 'subjects' each possess only one 'item', we would use the singular form. The plural form would imply that each 'subject' possesses more than one 'item'.


For example, we would say:

"The men removed their hat."

In my language, saying "The men removed their hats." would imply that each man had more than one hat (which would be rather illogical).


This is an obvious example, but the singular/plural form can be used for clarification in many other instances.

For example:

"The people were walking their dogs." would imply that each person had more than one dog.


Is it the same way it is used in English? Or is the plural form always used?

Thanks for the feedback!


Their itself doesnt change form.

"They walked their dogs." This would imply that there are multiple people walking dogs, without a specification to how many dogs each had. This would be correct if 3 people each had 1 or if 5 people each had 3.

Clear as mud, yes?
SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
Thanks to you both for the feedback. Aren't there exceptions though?


For example, if I say:

"When I'm having sex with women, most of them are often eager to put my penis in their mouths."

This sounds rather illogical to me. Not only women do not have many mouths, but the plural form kinda projects that many mouths are working on my penis at the same time when I'm only expressing a generality; there's only one mouth implied in each individual instance.


It kinda appears awkward when 'their' is used to express generalities:

"I love people who know how to use their heads."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their countries."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their noses."

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."


I tried Googling different terms with the pronoun 'their' (their mouth(s), their house(s), etc.), and the singular form seems to be used in many cases. For example, "their house" returned 5 million results, while "their houses" returned only 2 million results.

It can't be all that wrong...

Thanks again for your insight.


PS: To people who know what my native language is, please avoid mentioning it in this thread; I try to keep this information confidential. Thanks.
Dirty_D
Head Nurse
their houses refers to multiple houses that they(whomever they are) own. Their does not specify if they have multiple houses apiece, just that the collective have multiple houses.
Dirty_D
Head Nurse
This might help

That's not so in America, however. So we’re now ready to tackle the second question: whether it’s OK to use the plural pronouns their, them, and they to refer to everybody or everyone. American grammarians don't agree on this issue. Some feel that if you can't write, “Everyone are happy,” then you shouldn't be able to write, “Everyone is putting a smile on THEIR face.” These grammarians cringe when they hear the word their used this way.

The root of this problem is that English doesn't have a word to refer to a singular noun of undetermined gender. As a solution, grammarians in the past have suggested that writers use just his to refer to everyone or everybody, but most now consider this solution to be sexist. Some alternate his with her; some use the phrase his or her. But I can’t imagine most of you could comfortably utter the following sentence: “Everyone is putting a smile on his or her face.” Therefore, I don’t recommend you use this type of construction unless you want to sound like a crusty old curmudgeon.

Sticklers have to face reality, though. For example, noted grammarian Bryan Garner has this to say about writers' tendencies to use their to refer to these singular pronouns: “Disturbing though these developments may be to purists, they’re irreversible. And nothing that a grammarian says will change them (2).” - See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/everybody-singular-or-plural?page=1#sthash.3y28mrPO.dpuf


Everybody: Singular or Plural. (n.d.). Quick and Dirty Tips. Retrieved July 16, 2014, from http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/everybody-singular-or-plural?page=1
SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
Quote by SereneProdigy
"I love people who know how to use their heads."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their countries."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their noses."

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."


Thanks again for the help. So my above examples would in fact be correct?
Dirty_D
Head Nurse
Quote by SereneProdigy


Thanks again for the help. So my above examples would in fact be correct?


yes
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by SereneProdigy
"I love people who know how to use their heads."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their countries."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their noses."

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."]


Yes and no. It's not as straightforward as that

The correct English would be:

"I love people who know how to use their head."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their country."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their nose."

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."

To confirm earlier, these are correct:

"The people were walking their dogs."

"The men removed their hats."


This is part of a branch of English called semantics. This particular area is known as logical semantics. Some people do a PhD on it!! But you would never get a story returned if you wrote one or the other. We're not that mean.

Danny xxx

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Buz
The Linebacker
If you see that I have used the incorrect 'their' or 'there', it is due to my dyslexia. Please notify me and I'll fix that. Their and there is one of the main words that my brain fails to recognize immediately. I have trained myself to stop and revue that word, but if I am typing in a hurry... ugh!

That is very interesting about the plurality and how it changes the meaning/perception regarding the following noun in other languages.
SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
Quote by DanielleX
Yes and no. It's not as straightforward as that

The correct English would be:

"I love people who know how to use their head."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their country."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their nose."

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."

To confirm earlier, these are correct:

"The people were walking their dogs."

"The men removed their hats."


This is part of a branch of English called semantics. This particular area is known as logical semantics. Some people do a PhD on it!! But you would never get a story returned if you wrote one or the other. We're not that mean.

Danny xxx


Thanks for that reply. Now I'm even more confused though. Is there any coherent rule to know which form to use?
CrisMO
Rookie Scribe
I agree with these:

Quote by DanielleX

The correct English would be:

"I love people who know how to use their head."

"By definition, the term 'patriots' represents people who love their country."

"Generally speaking, most humans breathe through their nose."



And I'm not sure if it helps, but here's how I think it works: people, country, and humans are collective nouns (not sure if that's the word), so 1 person/ human being = 1 head/nose. People is used because "persons" is not right. And "most humans" would be pretty much the same as "people" and since we can't guess the gender of the people, or the humans on those sentences, that's why "their" is used.
It's the same with "country", the only difference is that that sentence makes reference to just 1 country, if it said "countries" then we would be talking about different groups of patriots, that love their respective countries.

But now, I'm confused with these:

Quote by DanielleX

"Women should be free to do whatever they want with their bodies."

"The men removed their hats."



I get your confusion, I would have said "The men removed their hat" and "Women should be free to do whatever they want with their body."

Because 1 woman = 1 body and 1 men = 1 hat. Using the plural form "bodies" and "hats" would imply, in my language, that 1 woman has more than 1 body, and 1 men is wearing more than 1 hat.

And I guess that

"The people were walking their dogs." or "The people were walking their dog." depends on perspective. The first one would mean that there are a 2+ dogs being walked by 2+ people. While the second sentence, means that, for example, it could be a couple walking just 1 dog.
Dirty_D
Head Nurse
Quote by SereneProdigy


Thanks for that reply. Now I'm even more confused though. Is there any coherent rule to know which form to use?


Haha. No. Its what makes English so frustrating, and don't forget that how we use the language varies depending on what continent we are on also. even how we spell things.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by SereneProdigy

"When I'm having sex with women, most of them are often eager to put my penis in their mouths."

This sounds rather illogical to me. Not only women do not have many mouths, but the plural form kinda projects that many mouths are working on my penis at the same time when I'm only expressing a generality; there's only one mouth implied in each individual instance.



Your original statement implies you're having sex with lots of women at once.

"During sex, women are often eager to put my penis in their mouths" it's still a horribly clunky sentence

"Their House" probably crops up quite a lot more on google as it describes more than one person living in one house:

"The couple moved into their house in March"

whereas

"The property owners on the street had to repaint their houses every 10 years"

In everyday language misuse of "their" has come about generally because of a lack neutral possessive. This gives rise to it being common to hear the word with a singular noun after it.

"Someone's left their bag here" - it's wrong but you hear it (and worse, read it) all the time.
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DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by overmykneenow

In everyday language misuse of "their" has come about generally because of a lack neutral possessive. This gives rise to it being common to hear the word with a singular noun after it.

"Someone's left their bag here" - it's wrong but you hear it (and worse, read it) all the time.


I don't see why this is wrong.

The alternative to their would be 'his' or 'her' but in the absence of a known gender, 'their' is perfectly acceptable.

I think the word their is a red herring in parts of this thread. The difficulty arises from assigning the correct noun in certain sentences. This is purely a question of semantics.

In the sentence, '"When I'm having sex with women, most of them are often eager to put my penis in their mouths." This is patently wrong, because it is implied that the speaker is referring to women as individuals, who possessive one mouth. It would be very unusual if someone were to construe 'their' to be plural, given the nature of the sentence.

Compare this with, "Suffrage and equality! It was pouring forth from the mouths of women."

In this sentence mouths is correct because it's referring to the collective mouths of women.

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overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by DanielleX


I don't see why this is wrong.

The alternative to their would be 'his' or 'her' but in the absence of a known gender, 'their' is perfectly acceptable.

I think the word their is a red herring in parts of this thread. The difficulty arises from assigning the correct noun in certain sentences. This is purely a question of semantics.

In the sentence, '"When I'm having sex with women, most of them are often eager to put my penis in their mouths." This is patently wrong, because it is implied that the speaker is referring to women as individuals, who possessive one mouth. It would be very unusual if someone were to construe 'their' to be plural, given the nature of the sentence.

Compare this with, "Suffrage and equality! It was pouring forth from the mouths of women."

In this sentence mouths is correct because it's referring to the collective mouths of women.



Well grammatically you're wrong. "Their" is a plural possessive not singular but it's used colloquially in that way and has been for many years. The same applies to the use of "they" and "them".

It's not that we lack a neutral singular possessive, it's just that we think it's very impolite to refer to people as "it".

"I bought the sheep for their wool" - how many sheep am I referring to?

The problem is we've got so used to using their as both singular and plural you end up seeing singular and plural noun forms attached to it. It becomes very tricky for those learning the language to know what is right - or at least what sounds right.

By the way admins: "username has added you as their friend" - tut tut
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sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
Quote by overmykneenow


Your original statement implies you're having sex with lots of women at once.

"During sex, women are often eager to put my penis in their mouths" it's still a horribly clunky sentence

"Their House" probably crops up quite a lot more on google as it describes more than one person living in one house:

"The couple moved into their house in March"

whereas

"The property owners on the street had to repaint their houses every 10 years"

In everyday language misuse of "their" has come about generally because of a lack neutral possessive. This gives rise to it being common to hear the word with a singular noun after it.

"Someone's left their bag here" - it's wrong but you hear it (and worse, read it) all the time.


some of us are complicated - it's ok to refer to me using their, because there's more than one of me.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by overmykneenow


Well grammatically you're wrong. "Their" is a plural possessive not singular but it's used colloquially in that way and has been for many years. The same applies to the use of "they" and "them".

It's not that we lack a neutral singular possessive, it's just that we think it's very impolite to refer to people as "it".

"I bought the sheep for their wool" - how many sheep am I referring to?


Their is a plural possessive, but I believe the word 'someone' is used to represent an indeterminate number of people, even though 'someone' strictly speaking is also singular.

Strictly speaking you are right, but it would be a harsh tutor who insisted on the sentence, "Someone has left his or her bag here."

With regard to your sheep query, you might be referring to any number of sheep greater than one. What's your point?

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overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by sprite


some of us are complicated - it's ok to refer to me using their, because there's more than one of me.


You certainly put the "it" in "Sprite"
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overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by DanielleX


Their is a plural possessive, but I believe the word 'someone' is used to represent an indeterminate number of people, even though 'someone' strictly speaking is also singular.

Strictly speaking you are right, but it would be a harsh tutor who insisted on the sentence, "Someone has left his or her bag here."

With regard to your sheep query, you might be referring to any number of sheep greater than one. What's your point?


My point is that you don't consider it to mean one sheep - if the word "their" is as interchangeable as you suggest, it should work both ways for the sheep sentence but it doesn't.

It may seem overly strict but having worked in publishing it's the sort of thing editors come down on. "Someone has left a bag here" is only a slight change and satisfies the rules of grammar.
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Red_Dragon
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by sprite


some of us are complicated - it's ok to refer to me using their, because there's more than one of me.



You most certainly are I have always called you the lil schizo
DanielleX
Head Penguin
Quote by overmykneenow


My point is that you don't consider it to mean one sheep - if the word "their" is as interchangeable as you suggest, it should work both ways for the sheep sentence but it doesn't.

It may seem overly strict but having worked in publishing it's the sort of thing editors come down on. "Someone has left a bag here" is only a slight change and satisfies the rules of grammar.



Your sheep example is entirely spurious. I am all for strict grammar but this is an area where semantics play a crucial part.

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overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by DanielleX



Your sheep example is entirely spurious. I am all for strict grammar but this is an area where semantics play a crucial part.




"Entirely spurious"? It must be better than I thought ;)
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