Again, what you are describing is ok. Fine if you get pulled over because you’re speeding you should present your ID, if you go to the store to buy beer or cigarettes you should present your ID, if you’re at a party and the cops come, they have to know if you’re of legal age; show your ID.
If you’re walking down the street, minding your own business – you have done nothing wrong, but a cop feels that you look like you might be “illegal” and he stops you and demands not and ID, but a birth certificate. Or what if you go to the store and want to buy food, the cashier feels you might be “illegal” so she asks for your birth certificate. Your yard happens to not be maintained this month, you’ve had too much work – and you’re Latino [or any other minority] so the homeowner association feels that because you are NOT Caucasian and your yard is messed up you should prove you’re in this country legally. This is all ok for you? It’s not profiling?
You know what Chef, fine you want the last word… You’re right it’s not a big deal, it doesn’t violate our constitutional rights, and we’re over reacting thanks for lifting the blindfold off my eyes.
You know Xuani; it’s no secret that I’m not the most prepared person to start a discussion. Nor do I use big words, more often than not I get tongue tied and don’t make sense – but I’ve been reading too and what I found wasn’t pretty. Frightening similarities between what’s going on in Arizona and what has happened in other countries. I was actually shaking as I read, what leads to genocide. To people like Chef this may not be a big deal, but to people like me – we’re shitting bricks!
… Genocide starts by the dehumanization of a group of people.
"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."
by Martin Neimoller, in Nazi Germany.
I don't think this is the start of anything like what happened with the Nazis. But I don't think that's what most Germans thought at first either.
I disagree that if asked by a cop anywhere, you should show your ID. Of course traffic stops and other criminal investigations are exceptions, and in those cases I would happily hand over my ID (and have, in a number of countries). Border crossings and other routine checks are also situations where one can expect to show ID. However, I would NOT produce my ID for a peace officer who did not have just cause for asking to see it.
A 2004 Supreme Court decision (Hiibel v. Sixth District Nevada) ruled that it was not a violation of a person's rights to demand that they show ID during a police investigation. To my knowledge, no US Federal Law requires a person to carry identification with them at all times. If such a statute does exist, please tell me where I can find reference to it.
As to LP's fears of what the happenings in AZ might lead to, her fears are not baseless. Feel free to laugh at talk of the word "genocide" in the US if you will, but genocide happens according to a predictable cycle that is observable in every recorded instance of genocide in modern history. Singling out the target group and promoting hatred, fear, intolerance is one step. Arguing that that group is "taking over our way of life" is another. I can point anyone who is interested to look up the work of Gregory H. Stanton, for one. read his "8 Stages of Genocide" as a good backgrounder.
touché [tuːˈʃeɪ]
interj
1. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Fencing) an acknowledgment that a scoring hit has been made in a fencing competition
2. an acknowledgment of the striking home of a remark or the capping of a witticism
[from French, literally: touched]
There is a big difference between genocide and a cop asking you for your papers in the US. You can read all you want about Rowanda and other countries that partisipate in that activity but, that in no way equates with Az and a cop asking someone to see their ID.
I've known a lot of cops, MP as well as civies, if they ask you for it, don't try to site cases from the supreme court and get all huffy, just hand them over. It's what you should do if you want to stay out of trouble. I didn't know that Az became Natzi germany from 50 years ago. Good thing we're nowhere near north or south korea, most people in AZ then would be in jail. They don't give a shit about your civil rights when you're in their country illegally. And that's what you're making Az sound like.
Oh and welcome back Durrasch.
We’re simply stating facts, one thing leads to another… You may not like what the statistics show, but don’t think for a second that the US is incapable of doing exactly what those other countries did, it starts with segregation and now a simple thing like show me your ID doesn’t mean what it used to.
I'm not an American, so I'm not as familiar with your laws, but I know that in a free and democratic nation like Canada, you don't even have to tell a police officer your name if he or she asks you for it. If they arrest you, then you must provide it, but if they don't have a reason to arrest you, you have no obligation to provide it.
The point everyone is trying to make Chef, and that you seem to be missing, is that you are heading down a slippery slope in which you are giving away your personal freedoms one step at a time. But maybe you enjoy living in a police state.
Did you know that if you get pulled over and you have an Illegal immigrant in your car you could be charged with smuggling? So, now YOU have to ask your friends for papers. I’m not an immigration officer --- why should I have to question my friends about their status? Or my children’s friends?
Thanks, Chef, although we both know I won't be here long... mods will all be whining and bitching about the bad man in no time, and this profile will be blocked like the Durrasch one.
And there is actually NOT a big difference between genocide and being forced to show ID when a cop asks for no good reason. It's all about control, mindless deference to authority, and the painting of one particular group of people as outsiders. And, given the recent difficult economic climate - historically an environment ripe for the abuse of minorities/outsiders - I'd say that shrugging it off as unimportant is the worst thing one could do.
And I don't care how many cops you know, if they demand ID without just cause, they can fucking lick my sweaty sack. AZ hasn't become Nazi Germany from 80 years ago (50 years ago the Nazis had long since lost the war, and Germany wasn't Nazi anymore). That doesn't mean that there are no parallels to be drawn. Maybe you should read up on the Nuremberg Laws.
And I fail to see the value of saying "at least we're better than the DPRK." Jesus, I mean, you really want to use Kim Jong-il as the yardstick by which you measure freedom in America? Talk about setting the bar low!
I still see that as a defeatist attitude. Just because it's law doesn't make it right. That's why you have a supposedly democratic system. If enough people don't like it, they can CHANGE the laws. And that's leaving out the fact that I don't think the Arizona immigration law would stand up if it was challenged as being unconstitutional.
Ok now to top it off, teacher’s with accents won’t have a job next year in Arizona. If you don’t speak English perfectly you can’t teach in this state – don’t we all have accents? Who are they really targeting with this ridiculous new measure? They announce this two weeks after Governor Jan Brewer signs SB1070… Coincidence?
Upped the views too Ladyx.
I agree with Pookie. I've never heard anyone in our country that doesn't have some sort of accent. Closest I can even think comes close might be Californians. Did I spell that right? LOL
And I think it just depends on where you go in Cally for that one.
I think we've found something we all agree on!
Chef, I would go even farther than that with accents. Since the language is called English, I don't think we can say that anyone in North America speaks it without an accent. I know that different parts of England have different accents too, so I'm not sure where you would have to go to find someone who speaks the original, basic, unaccented version of English.
Thing is, there literally is no such thing as unaccented English. The accent is the speaker's pattern of stressing syllables and the cadence of his/her speech. You may find people who speak with the same accent as you do, and you may think they have no accent... it's really just that you are so used to that particular accent that it seems "normal" to you.
Everyone has an accent. That's why the AZ education measure is so utterly ridiculous.
silly me!
