When Should the Federal Government use Race to Exclude Beneficiaries?

Quote by ElCoco

Although you've seen fit to take a jab at me, you still haven't answered my question, so let me reask it. Do you think a debate about race is OK?

Content dependant, yeah obviously.

Yes, I believe I mentioned that a few messages ago.

Quote by ElCoco

You did, but I wanted to clear up any possible issues with the debate part of this thread.

I think you and I disagree about whether the SBA's racially discriminatory policies are valid "content" to be debated. If that's not what you think we disagree about, let me know what you do think we disagree about.

Yeah for brevity that's what we disagree about.

Quote by ElCoco

That's cool. It's always possible for reasonable people to disagree.

I think the SBA's racially discriminatory policies are valid content, and you don't.

No.

I don't think SBA is racially discriminatory. You're taking it for a given. You are arguing the content from the question. I'm arguing the content of the question.

Quote by ElCoco

Yes.

I think the SBA's racially discriminatory policies are valid content, and you disagree with me.

Great. Established. Thank you ElCoco.

Quote by ElCoco

You're welcome, PrincessC. It's always possible for reasonable people to disagree.

Haven't you heard, no reasonable people disagree with me ;)

Quote by Ironic

Harvard lost.  Supreme Court sets new limits on affirmative action programs in landmark ruling

This isn't surprising. When they reversed Roe, we knew they were coming for affirmative action and gay marriage and that they were going to cut what they could when it comes to gun restrictions.

Quote by ElCocko

You're welcome, PrincessC. It's always possible for reasonable people to disagree.

You got cooked again.

The dissent by Ketanji Brown Jackson in the Affirmative Action case is a mirror of what we've been talking about here:

I especially liked, "The best that can be said of the majority's perspective, is that it proceeds (ostrich-like) from the hope that preventing consideration of race will end racism."

Edited to add this link, which is the full dissent: https://thehill.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Jackson-dissent.pdf

Quote by Ironic

Harvard lost.  Supreme Court sets new limits on affirmative action programs in landmark ruling

Let the goose stepping begin. Heels click together as the white supremecists snap to attention. It was a good day for nazi wannabees. Achtung!

Quote by ElCoco

In the ruling, Chief Justice Roberts wrote: “despite the dissent’s assertion to the contrary, universities may not simply establish through application essays or other means the regime we hold unlawful today”. … “What cannot be done directly cannot be done indirectly.”

Yes, places of critical thought and learning being dismissed to hold the status quo is obviously not a sign of an authoritarian regime……….

Quote by AngelEthics

The dissent by Ketanji Brown Jackson in the Affirmative Action case is a mirror of what we've been talking about here:

I especially liked, "The best that can be said of the majority's perspective, is that it proceeds (ostrich-like) from the hope that preventing consideration of race will end racism."

Edited to add this link, which is the full dissent: https://thehill.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/06/Jackson-dissent.pdf

You raise a really valid argument here in critical thought. People who study and advise on these inequalities often say the “we don’t see race” approach is the most insidious form of racism. It dismisses the lived experience of people and often standardises issues to that of white experience.

A simple comparison between disability access and “not seeing disability” would work here to illustrate your point.

Quote by PrincessC

You raise a really valid argument here in critical thought. People who study and advise on these inequalities often say the “we don’t see race” approach is the most insidious form of racism. It dismisses the lived experience of people and often standardises issues to that of white experience.

A simple comparison between disability access and “not seeing disability” would work here to illustrate your point.

I really like this way of framing it. People who claim they don't see race are almost always white, telling people who aren't that they're going to ignore that element of their identity, like it or not. It not only dismisses the lived experience of these people, but it also completely shuts down any possibility of conversation.

It's also interesting to me that Justice Thomas was someone who benefited from Affirmative Action. It helped get him into Yale (because of quotas) and put him in a position today to deny it to everyone else. Talk about paying it forward!

Justice Clarence Thomas, "Does that look like a pubic hair on my Coke?"

A real stand-up dude. Yeah, right!?

Here's an article about legacy admissions at Harvard. Interestingly, the percentage of Asian students at Harvard ware on the rise and at their highest level in 2019, when the article was written. Another figure, not in this article, is that the acceptance rate for legacy admissions is about 33%, while a general applicants would be around 4.5%.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361

Something interesting from that article shows that the two races that benefit least from Affirmative Action are also the most likely to be legacy admissions:

Taking a holistic view of the last 50 years we as a country have attempted to legislate the inequities imbedded in our society. Unfortunately for good or bad those attempts have had relatively little impact on the condition they have attempted to alter. In today’s contentious environment not even valid arguments can exist. Resolution of of these issues is both time consuming and impossible for government to correct. The question remains or better said the questions remain. Each like prisms reflecting light temporarily then dimming until the next ray of light glances across them. I truly value each person's opinion albeit I don’t always agree with them. Listening helps me and you learn, So listen respectfully.