Stolen Land

should have started ages ago, but better now than never.

Nearly all the current nation's on earth are on land that stronger tribes of people conquered/stole from other tribes. The Native Americans fought wars over land and territory before the Europeans arrived.

The Cherokee Nation land in the southeast had recently been conquered from the Creek Nation. They fought several bloody battles and The Cherokee came out on top.

Ultimately, The Cherokee lost their new territory to the white Europeans with whom they greatly intermingled and eventually lost their land via The US Supreme Court.

I'm fine with acknowledging that my ancestors fucked over Native people's ancestors hundreds of years ago. It happened, historical fact, no debate. Where it gets tricky is the 'returning' part. Exactly what is to be returned, and to whom, and how? I don't think the people making these demands have clearly thought through what they're asking, but if there's a practical resolution or way to make amends, I'm open to hearing it.

However, I think mostly - especially in the case of Ben & Jerry's - this is mostly just White liberal guilt centering itself, in other words, virtue-signaling. I don't have too much time for that.

Perhaps going back to indigenous names for towns and cities would be a good start? It's pretty crazy that those places still have names given by colonisers.

Quote by PrincessC

Perhaps going back to indigenous names for towns and cities would be a good start? It's pretty crazy that those places still have names given by colonisers.

Fine. Many places in North America already already do carry 'indigenous' names or at least some European approximation of them. Every Canadian of a certain generation was reminded 4-5 times per day -depending on their TV viewing habits in the 90s - that Canada was named after the Huron-Iroquois word for 'village.'

Mexico, too, comes from Nahuatl language, meaning something like "moon place." America, however, was named after an Italian: Amerigo Vespucci

It's also fun when you're local to a Native American named feature and get to hear everyone trying to pronounce it. When I lived in Florida, the pronunciation of Kissimmee and Lake Okeechobee were always amusing. You'd think everyone would know Kissimmee by now.

Quote by Ironic

I don't see much value in changing the names of towns and cities, but Alaska's Mount McKinley's been renamed Denali.

Names are intertwined with identity.

Reclaiming the right to name a place they founded would probably be very cathartic I would say. Or at least it is here.

In all seriousness, Naive Peoples aren't asking for land, or at least that's not what Native American rights groups are raising money for. Their long-standing requests are managing their own children's education, preventing commercial dumping in water that serves Native American Reservations, and their missing women and children. Up until 1978 it was legal to take a Native American family's children and send them to a boarding school for the purpose of civilizing them. 1978.

It's such a pat answer to say "Give 'em back their land" but when the land was taken from them, so was their culture and civilization. They had cities with populations in the thousands. Now, most reservations don't even have internet.

Quote by Ironic

Like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and other cities that didn't exist before those European colonists established them?

We could rename the Charles River for the cathartic value.

I don’t know the history of New York. The name doesn’t reveal much. Maybe they should rename it.

Quote by Ironic

How about renaming New York to New Amsterdam?

I love Amsterdam. Do it.

I thought Boston was already renamed to Masshole.

Quote by ElCoco

You've got to love those indigenous Dutch!

You go Glen Coco.

Isn't "Manhattan" a Native American name?

Looks like Ironic just slipped up with his multiple accounts.

Quote by Ironic

Now I'm the one with multiple accounts!

So you were just replying to yourself acting as if you told a funny joke just because?

Quote by Ironic

Read the thread post sequence this time and notice the New Youk and New Amsterdam indigenous posts between PrincessC, EC, and me. Do you ever pay attention to what's really posted instead of what you want to read?

But you replied to yourself, not them, and you replied to yourself laughing at your own joke... Are you saying that was intentional? Seems like a weird thing to do Ironic. Looks like you goofed up and meant to do that with a different account to make yourself seem like you were being cool or something lol

Quote by Ironic

I don't see much value in changing the names of towns and cities, but Alaska's Mount McKinley's been renamed Denali.

I agree, those towns and cities should have kept their original names.

Quote by Ironic

Of course, I replied to my post! I set up the joke. Here, let me walk you through it. PrincessC says the "original owners" of the land should get to rename it. So I suggest renaming New York to New Amsterdam because that was its name by the prior owner. PrincessC and EC jump in on that in a light-hearted way, and I close with "That isn't going to improve things!", giving a bit of a poke to the idea that a historical injustice can somehow be qualified or improved by renaming cities and towns in the language of the "original owners".

Anybody who doesn't share your opinions looks weird to you (remember Masshole). For once in your life try to see past your prejudices.

That doesn't make sense, to reply to yourself as if you're a different person. It looks like you were trying to back yourself up but you accidentally did it as Ironic.

Textbook twattage.

Quote by Ironic

How about renaming New York to New Amsterdam?

Why? The land wasn't stolen from the Dutch.

Quote by Ironic

Yes! The word “Manhattan” comes from a dialect of the Lenape, and can be translated as “a thicket where wood can be found to make bows.” The other 4 boroughs are Swedish, Dutch, and maybe Portuguese.

The article says that Henry Hudson was a Dutch explorer, but he was English, though he worked for the Dutch United East India Company (VOC, very likely the most evil company in Dutch history).

The article omitted Harlem, which was named after the Dutch town of Haarlem.

Quote by Ironic

PrincessC says the "original owners" of the land should get to rename it. So I suggest renaming New York to New Amsterdam because that was its name by the prior owner. PrincessC and EC jump in on that in a light-hearted way, and I close with "That isn't going to improve things!", giving a bit of a poke to the idea that a historical injustice can somehow be qualified or improved by renaming cities and towns in the language of the "original owners".

But we've just established that it already had a name before New Amsterdam: Manna-hata.

Quote by Magical_felix

Looks like Ironic just slipped up with his multiple accounts.

This thread isn't about Ironic's alleged slip-up and whatever account Ironic thought he was posting from, or the reasoning provided for the alleged slip-up. Please remain on topic. Thank you.

Quote by Ironic

I wonder how this will play out.

Indigenous tribe wants Ben & Jerry's to return 'stolen' land their HQ is built on

It's already played out. Someone called B&J out on their "virtue signaling". I mean, I'm willing to take a bet that B&J isn't going to be handing over their headquarters any time soon, but I doubt anyone would bet against me.

Quote by Ironic

I wonder how this will play out.

Indigenous tribe wants Ben & Jerry's to return 'stolen' land their HQ is built on

A good alternate, let's boycott these motherfuckers, Ironic

Quote by Ironic

Which motherfuckers are you talking about this time?

Woke ass B&J, with Friendly's is will be easy, great alternative.

Quote by Ironic

Do your thing! Take notes so I can read up on how well you did.

You're still going to support Ben & Jerry's? Wow, what a cuck

Quote by PrincessC

Names are intertwined with identity.

Reclaiming the right to name a place they founded would probably be very cathartic I would say. Or at least it is here.

The other Indians (e.g. from the Asian subcontinent) have been doing this. Bombay has reverted to Mumbai, Calcutta to Kolkata, etc. I don't think most Indians are too bothered by the change, and it helps with restoring a sense of decolonized national identity - not to say it goes the whole way or even most of the way to fixing things, but it's a start. The big difference between those Indians and ours is that they own and operate their country.

Quote by Just_A_Guy_You_Know

The other Indians (e.g. from the Asian subcontinent) have been doing this. Bombay has reverted to Mumbai, Calcutta to Kolkata, etc. I don't think most Indians are too bothered by the change, and it helps with restoring a sense of decolonized national identity - not to say it goes the whole way or even most of the way to fixing things, but it's a start. The big difference between those Indians and ours is that they own and operate their country.

You’ve created a bit of an, “ours and theirs” dichotomy. I do think that identity politics is more nuanced than that when we talk about people of mixed culture.