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If a tree falls... Your theory.

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Quote by patokl
The definition of sound in the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary

Pronunciation: /saʊnd/
noun

[MASS NOUN]
Vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person’s or animal’s ear:

And according to Merriam-Webster

mechanical radiant energy that is transmitted by longitudinal pressure waves in a material medium (as air) and is the objective cause of hearing

The way we defined sound, dictates that it exists, whether it is heard or not.


Patokl, read it back....

Vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person’s or animal’s ea

That's exactly what I said. the way that sound is defined, here, is that it has to be HEARD. Not 'heard or not', but it has to be heard

Please read back about what I said on radiowaves as a perfect example of what I was discussing
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Quote by Magical_felix


Sounds like a physicist gave a somewhat philosophical response to the question. It also sounds like Einstein believes the moon does exist if no one is looking at it or for it.

So I guess from a scientific standpoint it's just conjecture. That's why the question which is rooted in philosophy shouldn't be looked at from a scientific point of view.


Completely different.

Sound is, as Patokl referenced (although he miss read....) defined as the converting of vibrations to sound.
It's quite simply, by definition, not possible for sound to exist without something there to perceive it as sound.

The guy who first asked the question (I've looked it up...) was a philosopher of perception....at a time when philosophy and science meant the same thing! And sound is exactly that, a perception. It doesn't exist unless someone is there to perceive it

This is the last time I'll say this, as if it can't be grasped (or refused to be understood or believed) then there is nothing else I can do, but sound is the converting of vibrations into a sound. It's converting the movement of air from a falling tree (in this question), into sound.

No ear, or nothing mechanical to convert it to sound, and there is no sound

The movement of the air still exists, and the possibility of sound is still there, but there can't be actual sound if there isn't something, organic or otherwise, to convert/perceive it as sound.

The whole point of the moon is a bit like Schrödinger's cat- ie if you can't see the moon, is it 'alive' or 'dead'. Well....we don't technically know, but we DO know that if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it fall, that it doesn't make a sound!
Magical_felix
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


Completely different.

Sound is, as Patokl referenced (although he miss read....) defined as the converting of vibrations to sound.
It's quite simply, by definition, not possible for sound to exist without something there to perceive it as sound.

The guy who first asked the question (I've looked it up...) was a philosopher of perception....at a time when philosophy and science meant the same thing! And sound is exactly that, a perception. It doesn't exist unless someone is there to perceive it

This is the last time I'll say this, as if it can't be grasped (or refused to be understood or believed) then there is nothing else I can do, but sound is the converting of vibrations into a sound. It's converting the movement of air from a falling tree (in this question), into sound.

No ear, or nothing mechanical to convert it to sound, and there is no sound

The movement of the air still exists, and the possibility of sound is still there, but there can't be actual sound if there isn't something, organic or otherwise, to convert/perceive it as sound.

The whole point of the moon is a bit like Schrödinger's cat- ie if you can't see the moon, is it 'alive' or 'dead'. Well....we don't technically know, but we DO know that if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it fall, that it doesn't make a sound!


Ok, let me ask you this... If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it... did the tree create vibrations?
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Quote by Magical_felix


Ok, let me ask you this... If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it... did the tree create vibrations?


as I've said, in every single post I've made on this subject, yes it does. It creates vibrations through the air and ground, both of which have the potential to be converted to sound
Magical_felix
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


as I've said, in every single post I've made on this subject, yes it does. It creates vibrations through the air and ground, both of which have the potential to be converted to sound


But you weren't around to feel them but you do believe that there are vibrations created by the tree.

So this is just a semantical dispute about the meaning of the word sound. If you change the word sound to vibrations then you do have faith that the tree has an impact wether there is an observer or not. Which is what the actual question is about.
noll
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Quote by Magical_felix


But you weren't around to feel them but you do believe that there are vibrations created by the tree.

So this is just a semantical dispute about the meaning of the word sound. If you change the word sound to vibrations then you do have faith that the tree has an impact wether there is an observer or not. Which is what the actual question is about.


Vibrations can leave physical traces that are not sound (I'm sure that leaves on the ground will be blown away were the tree falls for instance).

Anyway, I think the original question was not so much about the impact as about the actual semantics of what 'sound' is.


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Quote by Magical_felix


But you weren't around to feel them but you do believe that there are vibrations created by the tree.

So this is just a semantical dispute about the meaning of the word sound. If you change the word sound to vibrations then you do have faith that the tree has an impact wether there is an observer or not. Which is what the actual question is about.


Yeah, but that isn't what sound is.

Some creatures don't hear at all, and convert those vibrations into something else (like 3d sight).

You are talking about vibrations as if they are sound, when they aren't. It's just what your ears convert the vibrations too. I would argue that we aren't disagreeing over the word sound (we can't, or at least I didn't think we could, as it's clearly defined for us), rather you have misunderstood the concept of a vibration
Magical_felix
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


Yeah, but that isn't what sound is.

Some creatures don't hear at all, and convert those vibrations into something else (like 3d sight).

You are talking about vibrations as if they are sound, when they aren't. It's just what your ears convert the vibrations too. I would argue that we aren't disagreeing over the word sound (we can't, or at least I didn't think we could, as it's clearly defined for us), rather you have misunderstood the concept of a vibration


No we aren't disagreeing over the word sound. What I am saying is that this is a pretty elaborate conversation over the meaning of a word. Maybe the original person who asked was just trying to understand what a word meant...maybe he wasn't. Maybe it was deeper than that and he used a poor metaphor or maybe he just didn't know what sound meant, technically. Who knows... Nice convo though dude.
sprite
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Trees don't fall, they Autumn.

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Quote by BiMale73


Vibrations can leave physical traces that are not sound (I'm sure that leaves on the ground will be blown away were the tree falls for instance).

Anyway, I think the original question was not so much about the impact as about the actual semantics of what 'sound' is.



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Quote by Magical_felix


No we aren't disagreeing over the word sound. What I am saying is that this is a pretty elaborate conversation over the meaning of a word. Maybe the original person who asked was just trying to understand what a word meant...maybe he wasn't. Maybe it was deeper than that and he used a poor metaphor or maybe he just didn't know what sound meant, technically. Who knows... Nice convo though dude.


Yeah, let's end it with that (although, I'm still pretty sure we disagree!!!)
Magical_felix
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


Yeah, let's end it with that (although, I'm still pretty sure we disagree!!!)


No not really. I get what you are saying in regard to what the definition of sound is and providing a scientific answer to the question.
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


Patokl, read it back....

Vibrations that travel through the air or another medium and can be heard when they reach a person’s or animal’s ea

That's exactly what I said. the way that sound is defined, here, is that it has to be HEARD. Not 'heard or not', but it has to be heard

Please read back about what I said on radiowaves as a perfect example of what I was discussing

I disagree. It does not say it HAS to be heard, it says it CAN be heard, in other words, it states a possibility, not a condition.
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Gil_Renard
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The chicken, is the egg.
sprite
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the egg, is the chicken. i am the walrus.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

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Quote by Verbal
Electrons both do and do not exist. They only occupy space and time once they have been observed, prior to that they only theoretically exist.

That's not philosophy, that is a major building block of quantum mechanics. Not exactly fact, but a theory that has withstood all attempts to disprove it, so pretty close to fact. Apply the same principle to sound (not a perfect analogy, I admit, though the substance sound waves pass through is partly made of electrons) and the sound only exists in theory until it is heard, and then it actually exists.

Thus, the sound both does and does not exist. Like Schrödinger's fucking cat.

This would be a lot more fun to talk about if we were in a dorm room doing bong hits.



As soon as I saw this thread, I kept my eye on it, eager to see what you would say, and knowing it would draw you like a moth to a flame.
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Quote by Magical_felix



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Hey man, it's like dude, oh yeah, this is good shit man. Quit bogarting that joint. Like yeah, it is a blunt, hey, do you think maybe our universe is just a tiny universe inside a bigger universe that's inside an even bigger universe? Do you think this rolling paper came from a tree or is it cotton fiber? Have you ever been hypnotized by bouncing titties? Damn, I need some Cheetos and Twinkies.



HotWife4U
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If I fart and no one smells it... Did I really fart?
noll
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Quote by HotWife4U
If I fart and no one smells it... Did I really fart?


Yes, that was the setting of your question.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===

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Quote by HotWife4U
If I fart and no one smells it... Did I really fart?


A good fart is always wasted unless it is done with the lights off and you've used a lighted match or cigarette lighter to shoot a long flame to entertain guests. Very popular at high society functions or at philosophy conventions.

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Quote by sprite
the egg, is the chicken. i am the walrus.

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Quote by Verbal
Electrons both do and do not exist. They only occupy space and time once they have been observed, prior to that they only theoretically exist.

That's not philosophy, that is a major building block of quantum mechanics. Not exactly fact, but a theory that has withstood all attempts to disprove it, so pretty close to fact. Apply the same principle to sound (not a perfect analogy, I admit, though the substance sound waves pass through is partly made of electrons) and the sound only exists in theory until it is heard, and then it actually exists.

Thus, the sound both does and does not exist. Like Schrödinger's fucking cat.

This would be a lot more fun to talk about if we were in a dorm room doing bong hits.


Actually, the cat exists in Schrodinger's thought experiment, it's the state of the cat that's indeterminate, dead or alive.

Similarly with electrons (though not sure why we're focusing on them for sound waves) and other fundamental particles - well everything really, just that the bigger and more complex they get the less that quantum effects are measureable. With the 'particles' the indeterminacy is in it's spin state, it's position and momentum, not whether it exists or not. They exist but as a probability wave, they effectively exist everywhere with a superposition of states with greater or lesser probabilities until interacting with other particles collapses the wave..

Whether something really exists or not until measured isn't quantum mechanics but is fundamental philosophical question that relates to anything. And really even after measurement, does it exist. In observing the toaster here I'm actually seeing the photons hitting my eyes from something that are then interacting with the rods and cones in eyes causing chemical reactions that fire action potentials down my neurons which then go through multiple layers of processing before the image I've developed is observed by the minds eye that my experience tells me is a toaster. Similar occurs with all the senses, and with our readings of measuring devices.

I could take the solipsistic point of view and say nothing exists but my disembodied consciousness

I agree, as bizarre as quantum mechanics is, it's the best tested and most solid theory in science due to the ability to collect prodigious amounts of data rapidly while eliminating unwanted variables.
ChuckEPoo
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Sound is a matter of science but beauty is subjective. The beauty of a sunset isn't beautiful without an eye to see it.
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Quote by HotWife4U
If I fart and no one smells it... Did I really fart?


Hun, contrary to popular belief your farts DO stink. Trust me on this one. Ewww
Milik_the_Red
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According to the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, it will neither fall now not fall unless someone is there to hear it.

See Schrödinger's cat:

"A cat imagined as being enclosed in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source (unpredictably) emits radiation, the cat being considered (according to quantum mechanics) to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the cat observed.

Therefore, no sound or vibrations in the air will be made as it didn't actually happen until someone looks.

(I don't really understand this shit either)

Edit. Sorry, I didn't see the above post.
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Quote by Milik_the_Red
According to the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, it will neither fall now not fall unless someone is there to hear it.

See Schrödinger's cat:

"A cat imagined as being enclosed in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source (unpredictably) emits radiation, the cat being considered (according to quantum mechanics) to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the cat observed.

Therefore, no sound or vibrations in the air will be made as it didn't actually happen until someone looks.

(I don't really understand this shit either)

Edit. Sorry, I didn't see the above post.


There is a misunderstanding here. The cat (or the tree falling) either IS or ISN'T dead, but without being able to see the cat, then the cat is considered to be in a state that is both alive and dead

But in this instance, we are arguing that the tree did fall down, and therefore there were vibrations, but no sound.

Vibrations doesn't equal sound

Heat and light is the same thing (you can't have one without the other), but vibrations and sounds aren't. You only get sound when someone is able to perceive the vibration as a sound. Hence, no person, and no sound
SydneySider
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It makes a sound, much like the wind that blows through them and the birds that chirp in them that no one is around to hear. Sound or noise does not cease to exist just because there are no ears to catch it. Whoever came up with the saying must have been bored shitless that day.
Milik_the_Red
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


There is a misunderstanding here. The cat (or the tree falling) either IS or ISN'T dead, but without being able to see the cat, then the cat is considered to be in a state that is both alive and dead

But in this instance, we are arguing that the tree did fall down, and therefore there were vibrations, but no sound.

Vibrations doesn't equal sound

Heat and light is the same thing (you can't have one without the other), but vibrations and sounds aren't. You only get sound when someone is able to perceive the vibration as a sound. Hence, no person, and no sound


Yes. But what I was getting at is, it's impossible to know, as per the uncertainty principle, if it made a sound as it is impossible to know if it's actually fallen. If one assumes it did fall, a completely hypothetical thought unless it is observed, than yes, one would have to conclude it would have made the commensurate effects of the fall, including the sound.

Edit. For clarity, I say sound because in assuming the tree has fallen, we must accept it was observed. That's physics. Without observation, one cannot conclude the action happened.
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Quote by Milik_the_Red


Yes. But what I was getting at is, it's impossible to know, as per the uncertainty principle, if it made a sound as it is impossible to know if it's actually fallen. If one assumes it did fall, a completely hypothetical thought unless it is observed, than yes, one would have to conclude it would have made the commensurate effects of the fall, including the sound.

Edit. For clarity, I say sound because in assuming the tree has fallen, we must accept it was observed. That's physics. Without observation, one cannot conclude the action happened.


Our ears perceive vibrations etc. to be sound. Not every animal does that, as I've said before, so what we perceive to be sound other things would perceive to be sight.

So someone (or thing) has to be present to convert/percieve those vibrations into sound.

Light is constant. It happens all the time. We don't need to see light, for the light to be there (but we do have to observe the light to know that it is).

When a tree falls, it sends out vibrations and that would happen with or without someone able to perceive it as sound. But it's only when someone perceives those vibrations as sounds, that it becomes sound. Otherwise, it's just vibrations.

The tree does actually fall regardless of someone seeing it or not, just as the cat is dead. The point is, you don't know if the cat is dead or not unless it's been seen. Don't mix up those two thought experiments!