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If a tree falls... Your theory.

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trinket
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Quote by Finnegan
I could care less, Shit happens! I bought my house 18 years ago, there were 20 evergreen trees (pine) on all sides of the property, there had been here for years, 60 to 80 feet tall. The wind has blowed over 10 of them since then, as the roots are not very deep. I have been very lucky, as none have hit the house or cars. So it's nature Why God designed it.



You didn't tell us if you heard any of the trees fall.
patokl
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by TheAngryishLover


You're confusing two intellectual arguments and I no longer have it in me to argue with you

Go forth and believe whatever it is that you want to believe. I'm happy knowing what it is I know, and am content for you to believe in anything that you want to
There are no two intellectual discussions involving that question about the tree. Since 1883 it has been part of the discussion about the existence of an unobserved reality, in other words, if anything that is not perceived, actually exists.
What we decide to call sound is a matter of definition. And that, the international standard definition is quoted by Bimale a few posts back. Whether you like it or not, that officially says what sound is.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

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Quote by patokl
There are no two intellectual discussions involving that question about the tree. Since 1883 it has been part of the discussion about the existence of an unobserved reality, in other words, if anything that is not perceived, actually exists.
What we decide to call sound is a matter of definition. And that, the international standard definition is quoted by Bimale a few posts back. Whether you like it or not, that officially says what sound is.


sound

noun
1.the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium.

Just read. Please. Read. Just once. Do it. Stop trying so desperately to win the argument, take a step back, and read. If you can't do that, then I have nothing else to add to the conversation
patokl
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by TheAngryishLover


sound

noun
1.the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium.

Just read. Please. Read. Just once. Do it. Stop trying so desperately to win the argument, take a step back, and read. If you can't do that, then I have nothing else to add to the conversation
Yes, by all means, do read. And do not, as you persistently do, leave out half of the definition.

Let's read the only internationally accepted official standard definition of sound, ANSI/ASA S1.1-2013, which is what lawbooks and scientists normally refer to. According to that definition, sound is:
"(a) Oscillation in pressure, stress, particle displacement, particle velocity, etc., propagated in a medium with internal forces (e.g., elastic or viscous), or the superposition of such propagated oscillation. (b) Auditory sensation evoked by the oscillation described in (a)."
No matter how you shake and dance, there is nothing here that makes the occurrence of (b) a requirement for (a) to be true.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
julie_bristol
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If a tree falls............then I guess it proves that the theory of gravity is right.
=d>
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Quote by julie_bristol
If a tree falls............then I guess it proves that the theory of gravity is right.
=d>


The real interesting thing about gravity, is that no one can quite figure out why it is so weak (as a force)
julie_bristol
Active Ink Slinger
It's more interesting to think that in the theory of gravity, mass attracts mass. In all other forces, it's opposites that attract. Why should gravity be different? Could Isaac be wrong???


Quote by TheAngryishLover


The real interesting thing about gravity, is that no one can quite figure out why it is so weak (as a force)
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Quote by julie_bristol
It's more interesting to think that in the theory of gravity, mass attracts mass. In all other forces, it's opposites that attract. Why should gravity be different? Could Isaac be wrong???




think of a large trampoline. When you put something heavy, like a person, in the middle, it pulls everything towards it

That's basically exactly what is happening with gravity. The trampoline itself is the fabric of 'space time', and the person standing in the middle is then a mass that distorts it, pulling everything towards it. The bigger the mass, the bigger the effect.

That's why masses are attracted to each other. They aren't 'attracted' in the same way as a force (like magnetism), but rather they are 'falling' towards each other

True story
Evie
Blackbird Supernova
Quote by TheAngryishLover


think of a large trampoline. When you put something heavy, like a person, in the middle, it pulls everything towards it

That's basically exactly what is happening with gravity. The trampoline itself is the fabric of 'space time', and the person standing in the middle is then a mass that distorts it, pulling everything towards it. The bigger the mass, the bigger the effect.

That's why masses are attracted to each other. They aren't 'attracted' in the same way as a force (like magnetism), but rather they are 'falling' towards each other

True story


Do equal masses in a vacuum fall towards each other? Let me rephrase. If nothing else was acting on them, would equal masses fall towards each other?
patokl
Active Ink Slinger
Basically yes, though distance obviously plays a part too. Imagine if that trampoline were very large and you put two balls on them heavy enough to form a pit, but so far apart those two pits don't affect each other. The balls would not fall towards eachother. But if you bring them closer to each other there will come a point where those two pits connect. They'll form a trench and the balls will start falling towards each other.

Unequal masses do the same btw, though the smaller mass will obviously move farther and faster than the larger mass.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Quote by RavenStar


Do equal masses in a vacuum fall towards each other? Let me rephrase. If nothing else was acting on them, would equal masses fall towards each other?


Yes, although sometimes instead of colliding one begins to orbit the other. The moon, for instance, is in continual free-fall around the earth, but its velocity balances out the gravity and keeps it in orbit (which is what Newton really figured out when the apple hit him on the head).

I could talk about orbital mechanics all day long. And often do.
Evie
Blackbird Supernova
Quote by Verbal


Yes, although sometimes instead of colliding one begins to orbit the other. The moon, for instance, is in continual free-fall around the earth, but its velocity balances out the gravity and keeps it in orbit (which is what Newton really figured out when the apple hit him on the head).

I could talk about orbital mechanics all day long. And often do.


Wouldn't that indicate that there is some unknown force acting on the objects? I would expect that, if they were of equal mass, then their gravitational effect would cancel out, leaving them entirely unaffected by each other.

Disclaimer: Physics is NOT my strong suit. I do, however, like to learn.
Verbal
Gravelly-Voiced Fucker
Quote by RavenStar


Wouldn't that indicate that there is some unknown force acting on the objects? I would expect that, if they were of equal mass, then their gravitational effect would cancel out, leaving them entirely unaffected by each other.

Disclaimer: Physics is NOT my strong suit. I do, however, like to learn.


They are falling toward the Earth, literally in freefall. But the velocity of the object cancels out the gravity. The exact spot where gravity and velocity balance is where the orbit is. If you are on the International Space Station and throw a baseball straight toward the Earth, it won't hit the Earth, it just orbits slightly lower than the ISS, because the baseball is still moving very fast perpendicular to the force of gravity.

If you have a tablet, there is a free app called Orbitlab. Great time killer. You can create up to 20 orbiting objects, and some fall into the sun, some collide, some get flung out into space, but the rest settle into an orbit where the forces are balancing exactly. You call also blow up an object and watch what the fragments do. Very cool. Cooler if you are stoned (or so I'm told).
Evie
Blackbird Supernova
Quote by Verbal


They are falling toward the Earth, literally in freefall. But the velocity of the object cancels out the gravity. The exact spot where gravity and velocity balance is where the orbit is. If you are on the International Space Station and throw a baseball straight toward the Earth, it won't hit the Earth, it just orbits slightly lower than the ISS, because the baseball is still moving very fast perpendicular to the force of gravity.

If you have a tablet, there is a free app called Orbitlab. Great time killer. You can create up to 20 orbiting objects, and some fall into the sun, some get flung out into space, but the rest settle into an orbit where the forces are balancing exactly. You call also blow up an object and watch what the fragments do. Very cool.


Ahh, but the original problem had them in a vacuum, with nothing else acting on them. Just each other.

I'll check out the app, thanks! smile
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Quote by RavenStar


Do equal masses in a vacuum fall towards each other? Let me rephrase. If nothing else was acting on them, would equal masses fall towards each other?


Some have already answered this, and they are of course right- two masses will have an effect on each other regardless of them being equal or not

If they are of equal masses, then they will have an equal affect on each other. If they are unequal, then they will have an equally unequal affect on each other- but they will affect each other nonetheless

So the moon affects the earth, as much as the other way round. The proof? Tides! Tides are the result of the water being pulled across the earth by the moon.

And as others have also said, speed determines what happens to masses as they affect each other. Planets closer to the sun move much faster than those at the outer reaches of the solar system, because the planets that are closer have to move much faster to not 'fall into' the sun. If two masses, equal or unequal, moved towards each other then one of three things will happen- 1) they fall into each other 2) they 'bounce' off each other, or 3) they enter into an orbit.
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by patokl
Yes, by all means, do read. And do not, as you persistently do, leave out half of the definition.

Let's read the only internationally accepted official standard definition of sound, ANSI/ASA S1.1-2013, which is what lawbooks and scientists normally refer to. According to that definition, sound is:
"(a) Oscillation in pressure, stress, particle displacement, particle velocity, etc., propagated in a medium with internal forces (e.g., elastic or viscous), or the superposition of such propagated oscillation. (b) Auditory sensation evoked by the oscillation described in (a)."
No matter how you shake and dance, there is nothing here that makes the occurrence of (b) a requirement for (a) to be true.


Neither is it a requirement for (b) to be true that what's described in (a) is defined as sound. There are two definitions for sound, (a) and (b). Both are valid by themselves.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
patokl
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Quote by BiMale73


Neither is it a requirement for (b) to be true that what's described in (a) is defined as sound. There are two definitions for sound, (a) and (b). Both are valid by themselves.
While I agree, that (a) does not require (b), the wording "evoked by" implies cause and effect. In other words, (b) is an effect of, and therefore cannot exist without (a).
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by patokl
While I agree, that (a) does not require (b), the wording "evoked by" implies cause and effect. In other words, (b) is an effect of, and therefore cannot exist without (a).


Sure, but (b) can exist, and be a valid definition of sound, without (a) being defined as sound. That's why I said that both are valid definitions on their own. They don't rely on the other to be a definition of sound as well, to be a valid definition of sound themselves.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===
patokl
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Quote by BiMale73


Sure, but (b) can exist, and be a valid definition of sound, without (a) being defined as sound. That's why I said that both are valid definitions on their own. They don't rely on the other to be a definition of sound as well, to be a valid definition of sound themselves.
(b) refers to (a), when (a) is not defined, it is impossible to understand what (b) is about.
Auditory sensation evoked by something we do not need to define?

If we write out (b) it says:
Auditory sensation evoked by an oscillation in pressure, stress, particle displacement, particle velocity, etc., propagated in a medium with internal forces (e.g., elastic or viscous), or by the superposition of such propagated oscillation.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
patokl
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Quote by BiMale73


Sure, but (b) can exist, and be a valid definition of sound, without (a) being defined as sound. That's why I said that both are valid definitions on their own. They don't rely on the other to be a definition of sound as well, to be a valid definition of sound themselves.
This would only be true, if we had decided to give (a) another name as (b), which we didn't.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
julie_bristol
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


think of a large trampoline. When you put something heavy, like a person, in the middle, it pulls everything towards it

That's basically exactly what is happening with gravity. The trampoline itself is the fabric of 'space time', and the person standing in the middle is then a mass that distorts it, pulling everything towards it. The bigger the mass, the bigger the effect.

That's why masses are attracted to each other. They aren't 'attracted' in the same way as a force (like magnetism), but rather they are 'falling' towards each other

True story


Well, of all the things I thought I might find interesting on Lush, I never expected science to feature!
julie_bristol
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by patokl
Basically yes, though distance obviously plays a part too. Imagine if that trampoline were very large and you put two balls on them heavy enough to form a pit, but so far apart those two pits don't affect each other. The balls would not fall towards eachother. But if you bring them closer to each other there will come a point where those two pits connect. They'll form a trench and the balls will start falling towards each other.

Unequal masses do the same btw, though the smaller mass will obviously move farther and faster than the larger mass.


Two balls being attracted to a pit? That could be interpreted in a number of ways......x
patokl
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Quote by julie_bristol


Two balls being attracted to a pit? That could be interpreted in a number of ways......x

A dirty mind is a joy forever
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
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Quote by julie_bristol


Well, of all the things I thought I might find interesting on Lush, I never expected science to feature!


Science is ALWAYS interesting!

Although I admit, it's not why I joined this site...
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


Science is ALWAYS interesting!

Although I admit, it's not why I joined this site...

I totally agree with both statements. surprised)
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
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Quote by patokl

I totally agree with both statements. surprised)


woah......we agree on something?!
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


woah......we agree on something?!
Why not? Thus far there's only one thing we see differently. Let's just agree to disagree on that. It was a discussion, not a fight as far as I'm concerned. No winner this time, no hard feelings either.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
Frank
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Of all our inventions for mass communication,
pictures still speak the most universally understood language.

Walt Disney
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WOW. all of this "heavy" discussions over "if a tree falls" .... then? I am kind of a simple gal, I figure if you are around where a tree will fall, I believe you should GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!!