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If a tree falls... Your theory.

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sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by NymphWriter


Clever. They would feel the vibrations of the tree falling so perhaps that counts.


feel, but not hear. the question specifically said 'hear'. i just won the internet! woo hoo! biggrin

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

NymphWriter
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Quote by sprite
feel, but not hear. the question specifically said 'hear'. i just won the internet! woo hoo! biggrin


I bow down to the greatness that is Sprite.
sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by NymphWriter


I bow down to the greatness that is Sprite.


as should all (except Cleo, who actually kicked me out of bed last night so she could have more space to lounge - it's a sad day when you're forced to sleep on the floor by your cat...).

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

patokl
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Quote by sprite
what if... a tree falls in the forest and a deaf person sees it...?
In that case, sound would occur, but there would be no one there, who could classify it as noise.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

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noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
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Quote by Magical_felix


Here's one for you. Put it on!


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I'm drawn back to this thread...

I had a thought. Indulge me.

I think a lot of you are thinking I'm stupid, or talking crap (or maybe just think I'm wrong) because sound (or the ability to convert vibrations....) is so natural to you, that you think 'well of course sound exists if I'm there or not'. Imagine instead, maybe, if humans didn't have ears; perhaps imagine if no animal had evolved ears at all. Then imagine someone describing to you what sound actually was.

What they would describe is exactly what I've said, only it wouldn't really make sense to you.

I think that's what you have to do. Stop thinking about sound as if it's something that exists externally to you- because it doesn't. Sound is what happens when your ears convert vibrations into something that you call sound. Without that conversion, then there isn't sound.
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover

I think a lot of you are thinking I'm stupid, or talking crap (or maybe just think I'm wrong) ....

Well, if anything, I'd call you stubborn.
Would you indulge me and explain to me, why dictionaries exist? In my humble opinion, the are meant to describe our language and, as much as possible, give the proper definition of the words we use. You can of course keep on ignoring that as trivial, but I'm sure that a lot of people who value the proper use of language would disagree.

Fact is, that all the major dictionaries in the world, regardless of the language they are written in, describe sound as a natural phenomenon, that CAN be experienced by hearing it, but that is not a condition in any serious dictionary. Any label to a sound, like music, speach, bleating and yes, noise too is a result of our interpretation of a sound. And that only happens when we hear a sound. That sound however, has to exist to be heard.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
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Quote by patokl

Well, if anything, I'd call you stubborn.
Would you indulge me and explain to me, why dictionaries exist? In my humble opinion, the are meant to describe our language and, as much as possible, give the proper definition of the words we use. You can of course keep on ignoring that as trivial, but I'm sure that a lot of people who value the proper use of language would disagree.

Fact is, that all the major dictionaries in the world, regardless of the language they are written in, describe sound as a natural phenomenon, that CAN be experienced by hearing it, but that is not a condition in any serious dictionary. Any label to a sound, like music, speach, bleating and yes, noise too is a result of our interpretation of a sound. And that only happens when we hear a sound. That sound however, has to exist to be heard.



Like this, you mean?

Sound
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about audible acoustic waves. For other uses, see Sound (disambiguation).

In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a medium such as air or water. In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.[1]
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Quote by trinket
If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a noise?

What is your answer and theory behind it?



It'll not make a noise.... it'll make noise pollution..... well if you don't believe me ask the grasshopper there... the little squirrels, rabbits, ants, birds... all these species will be hugely disturbed by the fucking falling forest treeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee... omg .... enough noise I guess lol
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover
Like this, you mean?

Sound
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about audible acoustic waves. For other uses, see Sound (disambiguation).

In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a medium such as air or water. In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.[1]
Nice of you to prove, that even Wikipedia agrees with what I wrote. I just cannot understand, how you keep on claiming, the definition above is not true.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
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Quote by patokl
Nice of you to prove, that even Wikipedia agrees with what I wrote. I just cannot understand, how you keep on claiming, the definition above is not true.


What?!!

Did you actually read it?!
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


What?!!

Did you actually read it?!
More than once, and there is nothing in it to support your opinion, that sound does not exist until it hits an eardrum. Audible still means, it CAN be heard, not that it MUST be heard.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
Magical_felix
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Quote by BiMale73


Here's one for you. Put it on!



All you did in that last post was reword what I said you big dummy.
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
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Quote by Magical_felix
All you did in that last post was reword what I said you big dummy.


The difference was in the nothing exists until perceived vs sound (and vision) only exist when perceived.


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===

NymphWriter
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Quote by trinket
Vibrations do not count. Not for this exercise specifically.


Sound is a form of vibration. Just saying.
Magical_felix
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Quote by BiMale73


The difference was in the nothing exists until perceived vs sound (and vision) only exist when perceived.



Not what I was saying, not the point of my post, not stated like it's a fact. You're being uncharacteristically dumb right now.
Magical_felix
Wild at Heart
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Quote by NymphWriter


Sound is a form of vibration. Just saying.


If sound is one form of vibration.................what are the others?

Lol, you're a teacher?
noll
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
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Quote by Magical_felix
Not what I was saying, not the point of my post, not stated like its a fact. You're being uncharacteristically dumb right now.


LOL. Well OK, I'll take that as a weird compliment ;)


===  Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER  ===

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Quote by patokl
More than once, and there is nothing in it to support your opinion, that sound does not exist until it hits an eardrum. Audible still means, it CAN be heard, not that it MUST be heard.


What the hell? Can you re read it then, please?

I can't see how you can't read that and not see it as supporting my points exactly? Especially the bit that says 'In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain'

Oh, and I agree with you about the definition of the word audible. Well done for changing the argument, though, as we are actually talking about sound
trinket
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Quote by patokl

Well, if anything, I'd call you stubborn.
Would you indulge me and explain to me, why dictionaries exist? In my humble opinion, the are meant to describe our language and, as much as possible, give the proper definition of the words we use. You can of course keep on ignoring that as trivial, but I'm sure that a lot of people who value the proper use of language would disagree.

Fact is, that all the major dictionaries in the world, regardless of the language they are written in, describe sound as a natural phenomenon, that CAN be experienced by hearing it, but that is not a condition in any serious dictionary. Any label to a sound, like music, speach, bleating and yes, noise too is a result of our interpretation of a sound. And that only happens when we hear a sound. That sound however, has to exist to be heard.


I see your point Patokl however that isn't the question. It's not about what is sound and what is noise. What some might think is noise, others might think is a beautiful sound. A big tree falling for example.
Magical_felix
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Quote by trinket


I see your point Patokl however that isn't the question. It's not about what is sound and what is noise. What some might think is noise, others might think is a beautiful sound. A big tree falling for example.



You're a black hole of intelligent thought.
NymphWriter
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Quote by trinket
My comment was a joke about vibes, silly lol.


I totally misread that. Oh well... worth the giggle it caused later.
patokl
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Quote by trinket


I see your point Patokl however that isn't the question. It's not about what is sound and what is noise. What some might think is noise, others might think is a beautiful sound. A big tree falling for example.

The question was, if that tree made a noise. Assuming it wasn't in a vacuum, the event did make a sound, it created the waves we decided to call sound. Whether that sound was beautiful or noise, is something subjective. It could only be determined by someone who actually heard the sound. So, with no one to hear it, there was sound, but no noise.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover


What the hell? Can you re read it then, please?

I can't see how you can't read that and not see it as supporting my points exactly? Especially the bit that says 'In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain'

Oh, and I agree with you about the definition of the word audible. Well done for changing the argument, though, as we are actually talking about sound
First of all, this thread originally was not about sound, but about noise. If I recall correctly, you were the one changing the subject from noise to sound. Second, I included the sensory aspect of sound in many of my posts in this thread. It is you who chooses persistantly to ignore the fact that there a is a physical phenomenon we chose to call sound. Whether it was heard or not, that phenomenon occurred when the tree fell. And the reception of such waves (the ones we named sound) cannot take place if, as you claim, they don't exist.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
patokl
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Double post
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i
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Quote by patokl
First of all, this thread originally was not about sound, but about noise. If I recall correctly, you were the one changing the subject from noise to sound. Second, I included the sensory aspect of sound in many of my posts in this thread. It is you who chooses persistantly to ignore the fact that there a is a physical phenomenon we chose to call sound. Whether it was heard or not, that phenomenon occurred when the tree fell. And the reception of such waves (the ones we named sound) cannot take place if, as you claim, they don't exist.



Sound and noise is the same thing- neither can be heard (let's be honest, noise is just a classification of sound, and is what the actual phrase should be (sound not noise). To argue weather we are talking about sound or noise is just splitting hairs for the sake of it; where as 'audible' is a completely different word with a completely different meaning

Secondly- what can't you understand? Yes, the physical phenomenon, if that's what you want to call it, that results in us hearing sound will happen regardless. However, that physical reaction isn't sound unless someone perceives it to be sound. Without that, it's just a wave

It's a very easy concept to understand
patokl
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Quote by TheAngryishLover
However, that physical reaction isn't sound unless someone perceives it to be sound. Without that, it's just a wave

It's a very easy concept to understand
There are four things that are defined as sound. Numbers three and four have nothing to do with this subject, but one and two do.
The primary definition almost invariably states, that sound is waves, that can be heard, traveling through a medium. In other words, if those waves exist, sound exists. No way around that.
The second definition mostly states, sound also is how our brains interpret the signals our sensory and nervous systems generate upon reception of those waves. This definition does in no way undermine the primary definition of sound, on the contrary, it depends on it.
So, that physical reaction, as you call it, IS what we call sound.
And yes, we also call the interpretation of it by our brains sound. But saying noise and sound are the same thing is like saying cows and animals are the same thing. Noise is just one of the many ways we classify sound. And that will not happen when a sound is not heard, so noise does not exist, when no one is there to hear and classify the sound. And that is the answer to the original question in this thread.
A little kindness can be so valuable, yet costs almost nothing

In many countries being gay is a crime, and even in modern societies, politicians try to legalise discrimination. Your voice can make a difference. Have a look at All Out to find out how.

Hey... pssst.... that's an l (as in luscious) at the end of my name, not an i