Is hate and/or bullying a learned behavior?

9 Oct 2013

Is hate and/or bullying a learned behavior or are we born being hateful? I just read an interesting article about a 4th grade child that bullied his peers in school. He did not learn that behavior at home since his father, upon learning what had happened, taught him a valuable lesson by having him stand in a street corner with a neon sign that said "I am a bully. Honk if you hate bullies".

To read the article follow the link: Valuable lesson

9 Oct 2013

Alas, that doesn't mean it isn't learned. The fact that the father humiliated him as the punishment suggests that the father might not be as innocent as he thinks. Humiliation and intimidation are bully tactics, I'm afraid, no matter how good the cause. Seeing other kids behaving this way at school could influence him as well. Even in 4th grade, peers are an influence. In fact, bullied kids sometimes bully other kids as a way of getting back some control so perhaps they need to look into his situation.

That said, I suspect that some personalities are more prone to trying to control their social setting which could lead to conflict and bullying behaviour and since personality has a strong genetic component, it could well be that there is an "in-born" component. Don't have time to do any serious reading on the psychology literature around this subject.

For the record, I was bullied (quite badly at times) from grade school through high school. A lot of that was taunting me for being "gay" simply for not conforming to the social norms rather than because I was actually engaging in any gay sexual behaviour. That is likely why I didn't start to seriously explore my bisexual side until recently. Acting out my male fantasies would be validating the taunts or something like that.

9 Oct 2013

Quote by seeker4
Alas, that doesn't mean it isn't learned. The fact that the father humiliated him as the punishment suggests that the father might not be as innocent as he thinks. Humiliation and intimidation are bully tactics, I'm afraid, no matter how good the cause.

The article said that the father tried all sorts of punishments to make the kid understand that bullying was wrong, but I will not put my hands in the fire for anyone I do not fully know. So yes, he may have learned the behavior at home or from other peers even at that early age.

Quote by seeker4
For the record, I was bullied (quite badly at times) from grade school through high school. A lot of that was taunting me for being "gay" simply for not conforming to the social norms rather than because I was actually engaging in any gay sexual behavior. That is likely why I didn't start to seriously explore my bisexual side until recently. Acting out my male fantasies would be validating the taunts or something like that.

Poor soul you. I feel for anyone that was or is bullied. It is just not fair. we all deserve to have a happy life. In your case you might have missed a few fun years of your life which I am sure you will get back, but some kids can't cope with the bullying and end up committing suicide.

I was very lucky growing up because although I have always been gay, I was deeply in the closet and no one suspected about my sexual orientation. Otherwise growing up in a South American macho society it would have been hell. However, being in the closet did not stop me from experimenting my sexuality as I had my fair amount of boyfriends. What I think it did do was to shape my sexual role. Being in the closet and with no access to gay culture and porn, I grew up watching straight porn like the straight kids did, but instead of lusting after the woman in the picture like they did, I got hard by watching the men and their hard cocks. And since the women were still in plain view, I used to fantasize about me being the women being fucked on the screen. Funnily enough, I never wanted to be them except when having sex. I never had cross dressing desires nor did I ever needed to feel feminine. Instead I have always been quite manly, but since then I have always assumed the sexual role of the bottom. Today I wouldn't change that fact for anything in the world.

9 Oct 2013

Yes and no. Children of bigots/bullies often grow up to be bigots/bullies. However, some break away from this and go against the grain. Likewise, someone could have the greatest parents ever and still choose to be a bigot/bully.

So it depends on the individual, but the environment has a great impact on this. It's a nature (innate qualities) vs. nurture (environment) sort of thing.

░P░U░S░S░Y░ ░I░N░ ░B░I░O░

9 Oct 2013

I think that bullying can be a learned thing more often than not. If a child is always hearing their parents or guardian saying negative things and making derogatory comments and slurs about other then they might follow along with it. Children look up to their parents and they might not know any better. It's not just parents though, their school environment probably affects them too, when other kids are picking on each other, more might join in so that they don't become the one being made fun of.

I don't think that anyone is ever born to be hateful and a bully.

9 Oct 2013

Quote by Autumn17
I think that bullying can be a learned thing more often than not. If a child is always hearing their parents or guardian saying negative things and making derogatory comments and slurs about other then they might follow along with it. Children look up to their parents and they might not know any better. It's not just parents though, their school environment probably affects them too, when other kids are picking on each other, more might join in so that they don't become the one being made fun of.

I don't think that anyone is ever born to be hateful and a bully.

Autumn, I would normally agree with you but in this case the child's father took action to prevent the kid from traveling through a wrong path. His father seems to be a good influence in the kids life, not a negative or bad influence. Did you have a chance to read the article and look at the video? They are actually both very short. I got the feeling that the father is a positive role model for a kid that somehow went astray.

9 Oct 2013

It can be both but I really think it is mostly learned unless the child has a mental disorder. Bullying is a horrible thing and if you have ever talked to a victim of it, it would break your heart. I have a relative who just bullied a child and I had some words with him, very strong ones.

9 Oct 2013

Bullying is that which is done to a more obvious degree by the one who is a bully. By that i mean society bullies everyone into what behaviour is unacceptable or acceptable. The bully is more obvious. The bullying by society is less so. That is not to say that bullying doesn't exist it says that the manifestation is glaringly obvious. Basically when a bully is called out as a bully that is only the society itself telling the bully that their behaviour is unacceptable. The issue is conformity to the norm, whatever society dictates the norm to be at the particular time. You will never stop bullying. Our discussion of this is proof. If there was a personal manifestation of this in the forum today, ie. a particular person that we specifically are referring to in our society, Lush stories society forum for example, then we would be bullying him/her into proper behaviour in our society. Just an opinion from one who has been bullied.

9 Oct 2013

Innocents is the word used for the new born. and yet sociopaths are born, psychopaths too. Blame it on the chemical imbalance, the missing gene?

Could be. However in my years on this earth i have found it is the environment that is the root cause for most social problems.

10 Oct 2013

Quote by NickiC
Bullying is a horrible thing and if you have ever talked to a victim of it, it would break your heart. I have a relative who just bullied a child and I had some words with him, very strong ones.

I agree, bullying is horrible and you did good by talking strongly to your relative.

10 Oct 2013

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
By that i mean society bullies everyone into what behaviour is unacceptable or acceptable.

I differ from your point of view. Society sets rules or norms that tells us what is acceptable and what is not. That is not bullying. In the absence of those norms we would have total anarchy and the law of the biggest and meanest would rule. we would have one person ruling differently or as they see fit as far as their area of terror would cover. In essence wouldn't those people be what we today refer to as bullies?

10 Oct 2013

Quote by Tranquil
Innocents is the word used for the new born. and yet sociopaths are born, psychopaths too. Blame it on the chemical imbalance, the missing gene?

Could be. However in my years on this earth i have found it is the environment that is the root cause for most social problems.

So a person could be born as a bully, but in most of the cases the behavior is learned... I not only agree with you, but also think that it would be nice to have some sort of statistics or a research study that could help us prevent or at the very least minimize the behavior.

10 Oct 2013

Quote by TonyZ

I differ from your point of view. Society sets rules or norms that tells us what is acceptable and what is not. That is not bullying. In the absence of those norms we would have total anarchy and the law of the biggest and meanest would rule. we would have one person ruling differently or as they see fit as far as their area of terror would cover. In essence wouldn't those people be what we today refer to as bullies?

As to the first point, "Society .... what is not." That is absolutely correct and if a person does not conform to that norm what ever it is, they find themselves out of society. ie in jail, dead, or ostracized and isolated in some fashion. Just look at our smoking brothers and sisters. Society is attempting, right now to ''Bully,'' smokers out of society. I agree totally that the ''biggest and meanest,'' rule in an anarchial type of situation. However when the society acts in that manner, setting up rules and conformity edicts, are they not actually and collectively the ''biggest and the meanest?" All I am saying is that their actions are more subtle. I'm not suggesting that society is wrong. I was bullied as a child, i know what I am talking about. The Bully was pointing out to me that society was drawing a line in front of me regarding conduct that it deemed not proper. This was manifested in the manner that the Bully chose to demonstrate this. The Bully was wrong in the manner of the methodology. Society came along after him and did the very same thing by helping me whittle away the more unacceptable things so i was more acceptable. Had my behaviour not changed I can assure you that I would've been, ''bullied,'' out by Society.

You can see this in the animal kingdom. The Pack or the Herd or whatever you wish to call it, will bully out the weak or infirm or aberrant or whatever is deleterious to the pack.

We need to as members of Society make very clear to the Bully that the conduct is unacceptable. It doesn't matter one damn bit if it is learned or inherited. It is wrong. Society needs to act as the biggest and meanest and ostracize the Bully until the Bully changes conduct. It all revolves around conduct. Again this is just an opinion.

Let's take a look at being Gay. Or, in my case, Lesbian. Or even, Transgendered. The first thing that needs to be settled here is not the sexual dysphoria that people like this feel, although personal counselling and or psychological help should be made available to people like this more readily, what needs to be settled here is Society's view of this.

Society needs to be on the same page to address this. One thing I have noticed is that individual, 'cells' of Society are not. As long as the, "Authority," the victim appeals to is wishy washy regarding being Gay, Lesbian, or TG, (even going so far as to say 'Sissified', if you can catch that meaning,) nothing will be communicated to the Bully that suggests that their conduct is wrong. That is the problem with Bullying. The Authority will not back the victim because they think that it involves a matter or personal taste, even going so far as to suggest, the Authority's concept of that.

To put it quite bluntly, Society needs to be the ''biggest and meanest," to properly deal with the one who just thinks he is.

10 Oct 2013

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
Society is attempting, right now to ''Bully,'' smokers out of society.

You see this is where I do not agree with you. Society is not bullying smokers, it is the other way around. Smokers have bullied non-smokers for years. We all have the right to do as we wish until your right affects me or anyone else, for that matter. If you want to smoke and kill yourself that is your choice, but in doing so don't kill me. Did you know that second hand smokers are at greater risk than actual smokers?

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
Had my behavior not changed I can assure you that I would've been, ''bullied,'' out by Society.

I do not know what your previous behavior was so I can not comment on that. I know that society's morals and rules aren't perfect, but it is what we've got to work with before it all becomes a huge chaos. What you do have to remember is that the system, along with societies rules and morals, are not static. It is in fact a work in progress. It may be hard to change, it may take years to do so, but if there is something you do not like about society, you can always speak up, gather signatures and lobby your government representatives to try to make the change you want or need. The more noise you make, the faster the response. We are all doing our part, putting a small grain of salt and step by step we are building the world we want to live in.

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
You can see this in the animal kingdom. The Pack or the Herd or whatever you wish to call it, will bully out the weak or infirm or aberrant or whatever is deleterious to the pack.

Yes it is called the survival of the fittest. But that does not make it right in our homo sapiens world. We as the thinking animal have a choice to do better and to help others.

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
We need to as members of Society make very clear to the Bully that the conduct is unacceptable. It doesn't matter one damn bit if it is learned or inherited. It is wrong.

I agree that bullying is wrong and that we have to do something about it, but I do not agree that it doesn't matter whether the behavior is learned or inherited. You see, if we are able to study and comprehend the reasons as to why the behavior exists, perhaps we can prevent it or at the very least minimize it.

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
Let's take a look at being Gay. Or, in my case, Lesbian. Or even, Transgendered. The first thing that needs to be settled here is not the sexual dysphoria that people like this feel, although personal counseling and or psychological help should be made available to people like this more readily, what needs to be settled here is Society's view of this.

Sweetie, Rome was not built in one day. I can understand your frustration because I am gay, but you know what? I am not sure how old you are, but I have seen lots of positive changes in lthe ast few decades. Most recent one is that state after state, and country after country, are all beginning to recognize same gender marriages. People in general are a lot more tolerant and sensitive towards LGBT issues than they were when I was growing up and in some cities is it quite normal to see two men or two women holding hands or kissing in public. Heck, just look at the number of TV shows and movies that have LGBT people either in real life or acting as one. We are still a long way from being where we want to be, but we are getting there day by day. We are all voicing our needs, within the system and within society's rules and laws, and in doing so we are not infringing on anyone's freedom.

10 Oct 2013

Quote by mountaingaljanelle29
Society needs to be on the same page to address this.

By the way, I forgot to tell you or perhaps you already know since it was viral all day yesterday, but a gay porn star (Jesse Jackman) posted on facebook a picture of himself kissing his husband (Dirk Caber) who just so happened to be another gay porn star. Facebook's reaction was to disable Jesse's account because they thought that the picture was not appropiate for their site. A few hours later, after a whole bunch of people and other pro-gay websites voiced what happened, his facebook account was back online including the kissing picture.

Jesse when talking to the media said "I received multiple public death threats after posting this photo, endured countless homophobic slurs, and received dozens upon dozens of hate-filled messages, and yet Facebook did nothing about those disgusting comments, choosing to censor love instead of hate… This is a travesty. Hate must not be allowed to prevail in this world."

This is the picture that caused all of the commotion...

Also, in recent news a few days ago Barilla's Chairman was part of the news when he publicly said on a live radio show the following:

“I would never do an advert with a homosexual family, if the gays don’t like it they can go an eat another brand. For us the concept of the sacred family remains one of the fundamental values of the company. I have no respect for adoption by gay families because this concerns a person who is not able to choose.”

Like he was able to choose in which family he was born sad

A few days later, after the LGBT global community boycotted the company, the Chairman of the company made a whole bunch of apologies in which he has repeatedly said he feels “depressed and saddened” by the situation he’s created. The last part of the article I read had Rich Ferraro GLAAD’s Vice President of Communications saying the following:

“I think the public backlash shows that homophobia is bad for business today because we’re living in a world where LGBT people are respected and accepted,” Ferraro said. “That wasn’t the case five years ago.”

If you want to read the full article go to the following link: http://www.queerty.com/barilla-chairman-meets-with-lgbt-groups-in-an-attempt-to-reverse-global-boycott-20131008/

10 Oct 2013

All well and good.

First of all let me address this secondary smoke issue you brought up. Hang with this for a minute and do not emotionally respond although from what I have seen thus far I don't think you will.

Unless you non smokers can clearly delineate the specific amounts of carcinogens that I as a smoker dump into the atmosphere and clearly demonstrate it as mine as opposed to the infinite trillions (literally) of other carcinogens dumped into that atmosphere on a daily basis by the rest of every animal and plant on this planet you have no right to tell me that I can't.
Existing on this planet releases that. Every thing on this planet contributes to the carcinogens dumped here not just me. This is a hypocritical argument, what makes your carcinogens better than mine? If you don't want me to smoke in your presence whatever. Carcinogens are an issue no doubt. Unless you are ready to label all carcinogens as secondary smoke. It would be wise to remember the old adage about three fingers pointing back as a person points one finger.

As to the big C, cancer. My father passed away because of throat cancer 15 years ago . They attribute his death to cigarettes yet he was conceived in south-western South Dakota near a town named Edgemont which at one time was to be evacuated because of excess Radiation. Subsequently the have found vast resources of Uranium under the entire south-western part of South Dakota and are currently debating the efficacy of mining it. Yet my Father passed away because of cigarettes? Give me a break. There is another aspect also here. We supposedly know how many bombs they tested on the flats of New Mexico, we do not know how many they haven't told us about, (I'm sure they wouldn't lie to us about that, NOT) What is the drift of weather from New Mexico? North by Northwest. Where did the radiation go? Not only where I live but the entire eastern half of the United States too. Another point, the town of Igloo in South-western South Dakota used to be an ammunition storage point during both world wars. Today there are sign all over the area to stay out of the abandoned town, could it because they needed a place to dump the spent plutonium and uranium from all those tests? That is almost a no brainer.

I won't even mention Methane gas except to say that I find it about as pleasant as you find secondary smoke!!! I'm not attempting to personalize this I'm just pointing out that we do not need scape goats we need solutions.

I will talk about more about this bullying question later

10 Oct 2013

Quote by TonyZ

So a person could be born as a bully, but in most of the cases the behavior is learned... I not only agree with you, but also think that it would be nice to have some sort of statistics or a research study that could help us prevent or at the very least minimize the behavior.

I think all bullies are born but the vast majority either supress it or have it trained out of them. We have not evolved that much from the iron age but we have developed greatly. The alpha syndrome still exists within us as it does in the wild but in the main we have been taught not to act on it. I can't think of any animal that drives away a weak member of the pack, it doesn't happen, there would be no pack left. The weakest fall prey, get left behind, become ill, starve or can't adapt-that is survival of the fittest. I agree with Slippery that the main problem is nature v nurture. I believe poor parenting is often the cause for bullying, parents abdicate their responsibilities to the schools. Bullies are only exist because of their peers, they encourage it by condoning it. No bully would carry on if, by bullying, they became the outcast or the unpopular one. Finally, because my brain is aching without my sister's help, all this talk of society has me confused. We all live in democracies, WE ARE SOCIETY. We, through our vote, make the rules for majority of the members, that's how it works. Sometimes this is unfair on a minority group but it is up to the group to persuade the majority that it is unfair.
Ok Tony you can chop me up and chew me. Lol
boxing

10 Oct 2013

Some are born that way and for some it is learned behavior. We know sociopaths are born that way.

10 Oct 2013

i'm not even close to an expert, but my opinion, just from being life experience is that it's mostly enviornmental and learned behavior - doesn't even have to come from the parents - perhaps it's an admired uncle or a celebrity - movie, music, or sports star - Chris Brown comes to mind, a musician who has millions of fans and been documented as being abusive. kids are impressionable - we all had someone we admired and wanted to be like when we were growing up - hopefully it was someone of good character with ethics, but that's not always the case.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

11 Oct 2013

Quote by dpw

I think all bullies are born but the vast majority either suppress it or have it trained out of them.

I do believe that some bullies are born with aggressive tendencies or traits which are later developed, or not, through an early experience. But to say that all bullies are born that way is an irresponsible and light way to look at the issue. There are lots of factors and circumstances that should be examined in order to determine why a certain behavior is exhibited by a child. Take for instance a family in which the two siblings are exposed to an abusive experience at an early age. One of the brothers may develop and exhibit a negative behavior while the second does not. How can we explain that? Well, perhaps one of the siblings was prone to an aggressive behavior that was dormant, only to awaken through a negative experience. In this case, he did not learn the behavior, the negative experience merely awoke a tendency that was in his genes. Other factors that may be attributable to an aggressive behavior that was not learned may be an effect of a disease and even physical trauma, like falling and hitting his head, external psychological issues and in some cases deficiencies of several essential nutrients, vitamins and minerals. Any of those factors, and I am sure there are lots more, may have a child exhibit a restlessness behavior, irritability, impulsivity and ultimately violence even if the child lives in a happy and supportive environment.

So far we have genes and or tendencies (born that way), disease, physical trauma, psychological factors and nutritional deficiencies. However, all those factors are only one half of the equation, the other half and I suspect the greater half is a learned behavior. I can not quantify nor speculate on a percentage number that could be attributed to each, but the environment of a child most likely plays the bigger part of this issue.

The two major environments of a child are their home and school... At home the child may have abusive parents, siblings, nanny or other family members, while unsupervised tv viewing, certain violent video games and/or the internet may also be attributed to a learned behavior. At school abusive teachers and peer pressure are the two major components. So you see, to say that all bullies are born that way is like saying that all dogs will bite viciously any human that approaches them without a particular cause. Heck, my dog will probably jump on an intruder, pushing him to the ground, just to lick his face.

Quote by dpw
The alpha syndrome still exists within us as it does in the wild but in the main we have been taught not to act on it.

Again I disagree with you. Yes there are alpha people, but not the way you would expect and they do not suppress their instincts either. Just the other day I was watching either The Discovery Channel or National Geographic and they had a documentary in which human behavior has compared to wild apes to determine who was the alpha leader in a group of men than had met at the beginning of the program. Alpha leaders where always more confident and assertive in most situations, but not in all. In other words, the role changed between three different people in a group of seven depending on the task and depending on whether there was a female present or not. However, those alpha traits where exhibited completely unconsciously. Otherwise don't you think that we would all want to be the alpha leader?

Quote by dpw
I believe poor parenting is often the cause for bullying, parents abdicate their responsibilities to the schools. Bullies are only exist because of their peers, they encourage it by condoning it. No bully would carry on if, by bullying, they became the outcast or the unpopular one.

Yes, I agree that poor parenting and peer pressure are parts of the puzzle in order to decipher bully behavior. But isn't this statement contradictory with your opening statement when you said that all bullies are born that way?

Quote by dpw
We all live in democracies, WE ARE SOCIETY. We, through our vote, make the rules for majority of the members, that's how it works. Sometimes this is unfair on a minority group but it is up to the group to persuade the majority that it is unfair.

Finally I can agree with you 100%. That is exactly what I tried to say in another of my answers... well done!

Quote by dpw
Ok Tony you can chop me up and chew me. Lol

How did I do with the copping and chewing? LMAO!

11 Oct 2013

Quote by TonyZ

How did I do with the chopping and chewing? LMAO!

Ok! I'm going to take the last argument first. No I don't think it is contradictory, I think it supports my hypothesis.
You think that some bullies are born, ergo some aren't, that's like "some men are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them".
I don't think I'm being light or irresponsible, I do think other factors have a huge influence.
Your example of siblings doesn't have that much weight as they share only at most 50% of the genes. A better example is the study done on identical twins. I read a great quote today (yes I research) "We are all born with a biological hand, it's how we deal with it".
Although not enough research has been yet, the gene that precipitates agression has been found, the so called warrior gene, found in 50% of males. Hormonal affect on that and other genes is staggering, a hormone that's produced by fear can stimulate a dormant warrior gene, the bullied becomes the bully.
Finally the dog is a pack animal, it follows the leader, in the case of your dog it will follow your lead.
Secretly I was hoping you'd be knocking me over and licking me!
Slurrrp.

11 Oct 2013

Quote by dpw
Secretly I was hoping you'd be knocking me over and licking me!
Slurrrp.

The quote above is the best thing that you've said regarding this issue... and yes, I would so lick you from head to toe. Are you ticklinsh by any chance? ;))

Just kidding, your message was well received and was packed with knowledge. I will research a little about the warrior gene because it sounds quite interesting. Thank you for that one! I am particularly interested in knowing, and I am not sure if I will ever find out, if there are any bullies without the warrior gene. Would be interesting to find statistics about this gene related to the action of bullying.

I do have some comments regarding the dog and the sibling examples, but I am getting ready to leave the country for a week on business. Hopefully I will have time and internet to keep posting and have fun with you guys. By the way, today I came across a sad piece of news regarding the father of a gay teen that committed suicide has died while in a cross-country walk against bullying... if you would like to read the article please follow this link: http://www.queerty.com/father-of-gay-teen-who-committed-suicide-dies-in-cross-country-walk-against-bullying-20131010/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Queerty%20Active&utm_campaign=Queerty%20Daily%20Newsletter

11 Oct 2013

Quote by TonyZ

By the way, today I came across a sad piece of news regarding the father of a gay teen that committed suicide has died while in a cross-country walk against bullying... if you would like to read the article please follow this link: http://www.queerty.com/father-of-gay-teen-who-committed-suicide-dies-in-cross-country-walk-against-bullying-20131010/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Queerty%20Active&utm_campaign=Queerty%20Daily%20Newsletter

Just read it, the article is in the paper tomorrow. I remember the son dying, it was reported over here. The poor mother and kids, 2 tragedies so close together, I hope they've got good support.
Btw re-read my answer and realised I said 50% that should be 30%. Also it didn't mention females, I thought that odd as recent recent study in England and Sweden suggest that bullying in girls is more genetic. The strangest bit of info on this that I found was the discovery of a victim gene, people who have this are likely to become the victims of bullies.
Finally no not ticklish you can lick all you like but not the dog. Lol

11 Oct 2013

Bullying can lead to real violence. Ask Matthew Shepard. Oh we can't because a bunch of murdering bullies killed him. Ask Diane Whipple? No we can't bullies...Bullies have to be stopped young and some parents think it makes their child look tough, no it makes the rest of us question what goes on in your home.

12 Oct 2013

I wish to make one point regarding this whole bullying issue as it relates to this discussion and then I will bow out.

The only way this whole debate makes any sense is if, One, (Society,) is going to so thoroughly study this to the end of going all the way to the, Mother Board, so to speak, and by that I mean DNA, and reprogram people. If that isn't the ultimate in Bullying what is.

The way to handle the Bully is to criminalize his behaviour and deal with the Bully as a Criminal. Any other solution is infringing upon personal choice and society does not have that right.

4 Sep 2019

Pretty much and peer pressure too