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trinket
Convict
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Quote by Metilda


Streak-voting is responded to when complaints are made. Here at Lush no one votes in the void. [Wait - maybe some do. It's up the author whether or not they want to permit voting from non-members. I don't allow non-members to vote on my work.] so I'm not even counting Streakers as something to 'allow' but rather something that happens [in any venue] and thus moderators deal with that when it's brought to their attention.

I honestly think we'd be better off with a 'like' button and nothing else. Low-votes are discouraged. Some people streak-vote for personal reasons. Others high-vote regardless of quality [to push a friend to win a contest - to give moral support to a new author - etc]. So the numbers mean next to nothing to me as they do to quite a few others.


I agree with your points about allowing only members to vote on stories, I do that too. Forced commenting can also help but even then, I had a friend of mine tell me if he reads a story that has forced commenting on it, he automatically gives the writer a 4! because he is being made to leave a comment. It hadn't entered his head the reason forced commenting was turned on was to try to stop nitwits from fiddling with scores. If persistent low scoring (and often from brand new accounts where there is no avatar) is given, we can inform the moderators but there isn't much they can do. Some people have multiple accounts in different places, home, work, etc... so they can sign in as several different people. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

It is just a nasty thing to do to someone. I know we are never going to be able to stop that happening but it is a real problem for any writer here, no matter how popular or good at writing they are. It is a real problem and everyone gets stung at some time or other.
RejectReality
Testing The Waters.
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Pretty sure it's irrelevant to have it set to 'members only', because I don't think guest votes are even counted right now. Every single vote I've had on a story for over a year has had a corresponding entry from a member on the timeline, and I've never restricted voting in any way.

At least on new stories. I suppose something could have snuck onto an older story without me noticing.

It's too consistent to be coincidence, though. With as much traffic as Lush gets, I can't imagine that not a single guest has chosen to vote on anything I've written in the first week or so after it posts for such a long period of time.
Dani
Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
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Quote by RejectReality
Pretty sure it's irrelevant to have it set to 'members only', because I don't think guest votes are even counted right now. Every single vote I've had on a story for over a year has had a corresponding entry from a member on the timeline, and I've never restricted voting in any way.

At least on new stories. I suppose something could have snuck onto an older story without me noticing.

It's too consistent to be coincidence, though. With as much traffic as Lush gets, I can't imagine that not a single guest has chosen to vote on anything I've written in the first week or so after it posts for such a long period of time.


Probably because the timeline feature is linked to actual members. When a member votes on your story, your timeline shows as 'So and so voted on your story'. That can't be the case for non-members.

So perhaps next time you write a story or poem, try seeing if the number of votes add up to same number of notifications of members that vote on it. If there's a discrepancy, then it will probably be the non-member votes.

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RejectReality
Testing The Waters.
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Quote by Dani


Probably because the timeline feature is linked to actual members. When a member votes on your story, your timeline shows as 'So and so voted on your story'. That can't be the case for non-members.

So perhaps next time you write a story or poem, try seeing if the number of votes add up to same number of notifications of members that vote on it. If there's a discrepancy, then it will probably be the non-member votes.


That's what I mean, I haven't seen the vote total exceed the number of member votes showing up on the timeline in a long, long time. It traces back to the point where the site was combating that "4-bomber".

I just tried it in another browser where I'm not logged in, and attempting to vote as a guest takes you to the sign-up page without registering a vote.
Jen
Charming as fuck
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if you're not logged in and try to vote on a story, you should get a message advising that you need to be a member to vote, and either sign up or log in.

i think it was changed a while back to try and combat both random malicious votes, and also people who used various different machines and voted up their own stories. if you tried to vote twice on the same story it would recognise the IP address and not allow the second vote, but if you toddled over to a friend's house, or the library etc, there was nothing to stop you from getting a couple of more votes in (stern librarians notwithstanding!)
RejectReality
Testing The Waters.
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Yep, that's what I've been seeing for a while.

I'd rather have my voting open, ( which is why it's set that way ) but if people were abusing it to up-vote their own stories, it's something I'll just have to live with. Everything else boils down to "there's a setting to stop that if you choose", but multi-voting can only be stopped by members-only.
Mysteria27
Prolific Writer
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I am happy to report that MrMark and I are now friends. I sent him a friends request and he has accepted.

xooxoxo


Edit....he deleted me.....I guess that was short lived...lol 1/17/15
Dani
Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
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Quote by Echelon
if you're not logged in and try to vote on a story, you should get a message advising that you need to be a member to vote, and either sign up or log in.

i think it was changed a while back to try and combat both random malicious votes, and also people who used various different machines and voted up their own stories. if you tried to vote twice on the same story it would recognise the IP address and not allow the second vote, but if you toddled over to a friend's house, or the library etc, there was nothing to stop you from getting a couple of more votes in (stern librarians notwithstanding!)



I had no clue.

Well that's good. One less thing.

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Guest
Lurker
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Quote by JefferyB
It is a very interesting topic and I would believe a topic that will be discussed as long as Lush lives. Sprite is absolutely correct that Mysteria proved her point. The point of feedback ... to offer a writer some information that would be helpful in future writing. When I joined Lush I made a point to ask for helpful advice. But that just doesn't happen here in the open forum. I gave a writer a '4' on a poem, stating that I was not a big fan of poetry, but liked what he had written. He went ballistic! Called me vile names and couldn't believe I would write such things in my comments. So you learn to just not leave comments, even when you can see that a writer needs some help.

*****We have people here who write 3rd grade level junk, but have many followers that like that junk. You just have to decide to ignore the junk if you take your writing seriously. Leave comments for those that you know want them ... send private messages to those that may need some help.*****

It seems like the ones who like that generally aren't a fan of my stuff, except a few.
Not saying my stuff's any better.

If you read one of my stories and want to offer some "help," please feel free to do so. Leave a comment or send me a private message. My goal is to improve as a writer ... if you want to help me, I'd be pleased to have your offering.


This...
I don't know how to write in a different way though.


I do believe I know who went ballistic!!

We were friends long ago until he demanded to know if I gave him a 4, which I hadn't.
ToshLoveCC
Active Ink Slinger
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If I'm reading something, I score it as I see it. We're all adults here and should be able to coexist without getting upset when someone peacefully scores your work. I thought this was the purpose of this site: for writers and readers to come together and better our experiences?

What are we? Five years old?


Guest
Lurker
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Quote by MrMark


Yesterday I voted one poem as fair. Since then I've received several messages suggesting that if I don't like something that I shouldn't read it, or that a score of 2 is mean. Obviously one cannot tell if one likes something without reading it, so that doesn't work, but the implication of what has been said is that if I don't like the quality of writing that I shouldn't vote.

My question...is there any point in having the scoring system including poor and fair, if the expectation is that they're not used.

Second question...if you read something that is below par, do you score and/or comment or do you just ignore it?


First Question;
Why indeed? .. why do people score stories? is it based on 'like or 'dislike'? ... is it based on 'my friend wrote it and I like to encourage him, or her, all I can? ... is it based on the quality of the writing?
Judging from the comments I read on stories and poems, I would suggest it is seldom the quality of the writing that attracts the score. Just because I read something here and dislike it, should I score it 1? Perhaps 2 if I think it is well written? The next person to read it might think it's a masterpiece! As for the 'quality of the writing', who am I to judge? This is as subjective as 'like' or 'dislike' is it not?

I think the LIKE feature, à la facebook, is a great option, one far better than attributing a score based on friendship or personal literary judgement. But one should be free to leave a comment I think. Also, knowing that someone has LIKED your work does give you an opportunity to say 'thanks'.

Second Question;
Are we not applying our personal standards to another author's work? I was always taught that if u can't say something good, best to bite tongue. Just because I think it is below par might not reflect the general informed feeling. So I guess I would answer 'ignore it'. Perhaps a private comment if u care enough. How many Lush Members are truly capable of judging a writer based on literary quality?

Have always been taught that Writers should write for themselves, and if others approve or like ... wunderbar!!!

So pleased that you and Mys are friends again ... mark of a gentleman
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by hayley

Are we not applying our personal standards to another author's work? I was always taught that if u can't say something good, best to bite tongue. Just because I think it is below par might not reflect the general informed feeling. So I guess I would answer 'ignore it'. Perhaps a private comment if u care enough. How many Lush Members are truly capable of judging a writer based on literary quality?


A friend of mine recently wrote a story here that in my opinion was dull, overly-drawn out and basically average. It's a Recommended Read has dozens of 5 votes and just as many effusively praising comments. Should I criticise it? Even privately? What would it achieve? I know she's tough enough to take what I say at face value and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't drop me because of it but why put myself through that. Being in the minority though doesn't make you wrong.

To answer your question the RR system is there to do just that. The mods are meant to be of a decent level and therefore capable of knowing of what's good or bad. The only danger is that it encourages a writing bubble where certain writing styles will take over at the expense of things that are perhaps less "Lush".

I personally think poems need to be removed from the RRs - or maybe better separated (RPs?) - they make up more the half of the recommendations here but we all know the vast majority of people do not come here to read poems. Why are poems being promoted when so few want to read them?
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
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Quote by overmykneenow


I personally think poems need to be removed from the RRs - or maybe better separated (RPs?) - they make up more the half of the recommendations here but we all know the vast majority of people do not come here to read poems. Why are poems being promoted when so few want to read them?


I would also like to see Poems and Stories separated and RPs are a great idea! Though as an aspiring poet, I am biased here. Judging by the 'reads' the site records, a poem will attract around ten per cent of the 'reads' a story will, if that, but such is life. It is wonderful that Lush accepts poetry, even if it is only for the 'few'. It is both a start and, I think, an outlet for many.
Should we ask poor beleaguered Gav to work on the separation? It is almost Christmas and I am sure he will be hoping for at least two consecutive hours of peace and goodwill!
Hi Gav!

oooops!! .. getting off the subject ...

As for the 'bubble' you refer to, that just mirrors literary life does it not? Wasn't it nine (or eleven?) rejections before a junior editor took up the cudgels and went into battle for Harry Potter? As for my second hero, Scott Fitzgerald, (roymunson is the first biggrin), when I joined Lush poor Scott would never have been published here (even with the best of ghost writers). Now? I think he would stand an even chance, providing he spiced it up a bit . So I guess the mix of Story Mods is about write .. oops! .. right?! Must be to tolerate my stuff.

Guest
Lurker
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Quote by Mysteria27
I am happy to report that MrMark and I are now friends. I sent him a friends request and he has accepted.

xooxoxo


Awesome !!!!





sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by overmykneenow


A friend of mine recently wrote a story here that in my opinion was dull, overly-drawn out and basically average. It's a Recommended Read has dozens of 5 votes and just as many effusively praising comments. Should I criticise it? Even privately? What would it achieve? I know she's tough enough to take what I say at face value and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't drop me because of it but why put myself through that. Being in the minority though doesn't make you wrong.

To answer your question the RR system is there to do just that. The mods are meant to be of a decent level and therefore capable of knowing of what's good or bad. The only danger is that it encourages a writing bubble where certain writing styles will take over at the expense of things that are perhaps less "Lush".

I personally think poems need to be removed from the RRs - or maybe better separated (RPs?) - they make up more the half of the recommendations here but we all know the vast majority of people do not come here to read poems. Why are poems being promoted when so few want to read them?


I kind of like this suggestion. I'll bring it up - thanks. smile

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.
Buz
The Linebacker
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Quote by overmykneenow


A friend of mine recently wrote a story here that in my opinion was dull, overly-drawn out and basically average. It's a Recommended Read has dozens of 5 votes and just as many effusively praising comments. Should I criticise it? Even privately? What would it achieve? I know she's tough enough to take what I say at face value and I'm pretty sure she wouldn't drop me because of it but why put myself through that. Being in the minority though doesn't make you wrong.

To answer your question the RR system is there to do just that. The mods are meant to be of a decent level and therefore capable of knowing of what's good or bad. The only danger is that it encourages a writing bubble where certain writing styles will take over at the expense of things that are perhaps less "Lush".

I personally think poems need to be removed from the RRs - or maybe better separated (RPs?) - they make up more the half of the recommendations here but we all know the vast majority of people do not come here to read poems. Why are poems being promoted when so few want to read them?


Your RP idea instead of RR for poems is an idea worth discussing, as Sprite said. That's a good positive suggestion in my opinion.

We hope that with several story mods and the varied tastes and opinions they bring to the table will spread the RRs out into the different story categories and highlight different styles. Being a long time story mod I can see that, but it may not be as obvious to a lot of people. Of course I have to look at a lot of stories. Our goal though is to reach different styles that are excellent and not be stale.
Meggsy
Active Ink Slinger
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Perhaps the score could be included with the comment. In this way the comment would explain the score given.
Being given a low score without a comment leaves one wondering if there is an ulterior motive for the low score.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by Meggsy
Perhaps the score could be included with the comment. In this way the comment would explain the score given.
Being given a low score without a comment leaves one wondering if there is an ulterior motive for the low score.


Strange how no one suspects an ulterior motive behind high scores ;)
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
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Quote by seeker4
What the Disney princess said. I've got to the point where if I'm not willing to give a story at least a 4, I just don't bother. It's no longer a scoring system, just a "Like" system and I think I suggested that as a future way to go in another thread on this subject.


I agree with the conclusion that the scoring on Lush is more of a "Like" system and I think it should be changed to that. In order there to be a scoring system of the "excellent, good...etc." type, there should be a rubric with the criteria according to which we score the writing (like content, style, coherence, impact etc.) There is no such thing here. I have noticed that some poorly written stories in terms of style, language, structure etc. are given high score only for the content. So I definitely think the scoring system in its present form has to be rerplaced by "like"/ "don't like" and if anybody wants to leave their comments then they can do it.
SereneProdigy
Cryptic Vigilante
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Quote by overmykneenow
Strange how no one suspects an ulterior motive behind high scores ;)


My thoughts exactly.

It's strange to me that an average score of 3 should imperatively warrant an 'explanation', while a perfect score of 5 should be very common and expected.

And let's face it, plenty of people will perceive an 'ulterior motive' behind a low score, no matter if an explanation is given or not. It's simply more convenient for their ego:

"Pfff, there's no way my story legitimately deserves a score of 3, that bastard/bitch definitely has something against me!"
RejectReality
Testing The Waters.
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And, in the end, no matter how you set it, slice it, dice it, or tweak it, large segments of the membership aren't going to like any scoring system, people are going to find a way to manipulate it, and you'll be right back at square one
e-reader
Rookie Scribe
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I don't usually contribute to the Forum but I would like to thank the contributors to this thread for explaining the issues surrounding this subject.

I recently received a vitriolic message from a writer because I gave one of their stories a 3 and failed to leave a comment. I have to accept that the lack of comment was an error on my part but among the torrents of abuse the score was referred to as "low" which surprised me. They then told me not to bother replying because they had blocked me (whatever that means).

It is all a lot clearer now. Thank you.

From where I sit as a very low level Lush member, an option to comment and "Like" would be perfect. Because my intention is not to anger writers, I now only score if I'm going to give it a 5, a comment with no score just means I would have scored it lower. That is actually a comment and a Like if you want to think of it in that way.
JefferyB
Active Ink Slinger
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I wouldn't mind seeing a comment "required" for every score given.
RejectReality
Testing The Waters.
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Quote by JefferyB
I wouldn't mind seeing a comment "required" for every score given.


Authors already have that setting as an option.
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by e-reader
I don't usually contribute to the Forum but I would like to thank the contributors to this thread for explaining the issues surrounding this subject.

I recently received a vitriolic message from a writer because I gave one of their stories a 3 and failed to leave a comment. I have to accept that the lack of comment was an error on my part but among the torrents of abuse the score was referred to as "low" which surprised me. They then told me not to bother replying because they had blocked me (whatever that means).

It is all a lot clearer now. Thank you.

From where I sit as a very low level Lush member, an option to comment and "Like" would be perfect. Because my intention is not to anger writers, I now only score if I'm going to give it a 5, a comment with no score just means I would have scored it lower. That is actually a comment and a Like if you want to think of it in that way.


It's a little disheartening to see that someone who's been here over 3 years, commented on over 50 stories and voted on more than 100 should feel in any way as a "low level Lush member". Can you imagine what sort of message you'd have received if you had left a message saying "Average at best".

I hope this lack of self-awareness is just a small minority of authors - though I can imagine they would be a very vocal minority. Scores and comments should be as individual as the people who give them
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

Why not read some stories instead

NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Dani
Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
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Quote by JefferyB
I wouldn't mind seeing a comment "required" for every score given.


You can actually choose this in your settings.

Most authors don't use this as forced commenting usually results in fewer votes overall.

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JefferyB
Active Ink Slinger
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I understand that it is an option and that as an option that when used will almost automatically reduce the number of comments. And that was my point ... if in order to leave a score you were required to leave a comment, it would cut down on the number of people giving low scores for reasons other than the quality of the story.
Guest
Lurker
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Quote by JefferyB
I understand that it is an option and that as an option that when used will almost automatically reduce the number of comments. And that was my point ... if in order to leave a score you were required to leave a comment, it would cut down on the number of people giving low scores for reasons other than the quality of the story.


I like your logic.
Dani
Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
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Quote by JefferyB
I understand that it is an option and that as an option that when used will almost automatically reduce the number of comments. And that was my point ... if in order to leave a score you were required to leave a comment, it would cut down on the number of people giving low scores for reasons other than the quality of the story.


Oh, you mean in terms of not letting the author choose whether or not readers are required to leave a comment along with a score and just making it mandatory.

I think that sort of thing should be left to the discretion of the author, which is why it's optional.

Plus a great majority of writers (and readers) here don't like forced commenting.

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sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by Dani



Plus a great majority of writers (and readers) here don't like forced commenting.


personally, I hate it - when I read a story, I usually leave a comment before voting and then, suddenly, I find I'm forced to leave another comment - at that point, i move on and don't bother voting. silly

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.