Quote by overmykneenow
What you've done there is what's known as a False Dilemma. Attacking binary thought like this is one of the great things about feminism.
Buddy, read my elaborated arguments against feminism and take your shot.
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Do You Consider Yourself To Be A Feminist?
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Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
Quote by Richard8
I did not say that I'm being stopped from speaking. I said that I won't be appreciated.
This extreme form of feminism that you draw distinction from, where do you think it has its roots?
Feminism in any form implicitly advocates the position of women as a special class of people. It's as simple as that. The reason I keep focusing on the extreme form is because it is the one having a larger impact than the rudimentary form that you say is okay.
And I repeat. The solution lies in the protection of those affected by gender bias and NOT in the promotion of a class of individuals.
The fact that feminism is a collectivist movement isn't an a feature of extremism. It is the very nature of the movement.
How can I use the extreme form against the simple form? I repeat - the simple form is the philosophically flawed root of the extreme form. What is the flaw? it's a collectivism asking for distinction.
If someone is treating a women with inequality, why should a woman aspire to deal with that moron? Why would anybody?
And there lies the answer. If everyone acknowledges these morons to be morons and not deal with them, the morons will fade away.
I'm fully aware that I might now be accused of equivocation. But there's a big difference between 'seeking equal treatment' and 'protecting from injustice'. The former is fertile soil for misuse. That's what's happening and that's why I'm not for it.
How can the latter even work, if everyone is occupied with the former?
Scroll the page and see for yourself. Wait for the thread to grow and do the math.
Finally, if you and anyone in this thread has felt discomfiture from my arguments, then ask yourselves, is it because I'm saying something that's unreasonable or is it because I'm putting an Identity under the scanner.
If it's the latter, then that's evidence of the collectivist bog superseding the individual.
I summarize - prevent injustice, persecute the moron, shun the moron. Period.
Feminism entails more than being mad because morons are being mean. That simplification is beyond insulting. And said morons can't be avoided when they're hiring you, signing your paycheck, are on admissions boards, are making up/expected to uphold institutional policies, etc.
I've felt discomfiture from your arguments because you've said many things that are unreasonable.
I take your meaning quite well, but I disagree with it. If you take someone disagreeing with you as 'not being appreciated', then that reveals all I need to know about you.
You're clinging to one argument, which is fine. But it's really not working in your favor. End of.
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Big-haired Bitch/Personality Hire
Quote by miketabcdefg
My only problem with feminism is the word. I'd prefer egalitarian, with a focus on gender equality perhaps. But I'm a pedant like that. Should there also be masculinism for those few areas that are skewed the other way, or transgenderism or homosexualism. So again, for me gender equality in the midst of a wider focus on egalitarianism is enough but I can't deny there is empowerment in belonging to a cause and so perhaps the term feminism serves a purpose there, a purpose that for some has been met and they no longer need the word but certainly not for all, and, world wide, no where near a majority.
...Just looked up the terms. It seems masculinism does exist - for men's rights, sometimes masculism. Transgenderism exists for seeking rights for transgenders, but homosexualism simply describes the state of being homosexual (one website described it as the teachings and indoctrination of homosexuality - lol) It seems the terms aren't used enough to have solid meanings, but even so, the English language can be a daft thing sometimes.
I agree.
I think feminism and all the other isms are all subsets of egalitarianism. Therefore, you can be more than one simultaneously. And advocating for the equal rights of one group doesn't mean a call for less rights of another...or more rights than another.
As a whole, I too consider myself an egalitarian.
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I am a humanist...
All need to be treated as equals before sex color or sexual orientation is even a factor.
All need to be treated as equals before sex color or sexual orientation is even a factor.
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by Richard8
Buddy, read my elaborated arguments against feminism and take your shot.
I have, and they're not particularly enlightening. You say that feminism is flawed because some feminists hold extreme views (personally I wouldn't say these people are feminists, I'd call them misandrists). Using your logic conservatives are just moderate fascists and liberals are just moderate communists.
You talk of collectivism as if being a woman is somehow a life choice. You seem to be able to grasp the need for everyone to be treated on a basis that ignores gender but you seem to be blind to the fact that systematic inequalities exist.
You seem to like flipping arguments so let's flip one of yours...
You say - "Demanding an individual to be given opportunity, attention and regard solely based on gender is not rational."
I would say - "Denying an individual opportunity, attention and regard solely based on gender is not rational"
Most level headed people would say that feminism has more to do with the second statement than it does with the first.
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.
Why not read some stories instead
NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Why not read some stories instead
NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Quote by Dani
Feminism entails more than being ..
I did not say that feminism is about being mad about morons being mean, I said - "Feminism in any form implicitly advocates the position of women as a special class of people".
If you disagree, back it up. You've not attacked any of my central arguments.
By ending this discussion the question 'what's the right way to go about dealing with the problem' is left unanswered.
Quote by overmykneenow
I have, and they're not particularly enlightening. You say that feminism is flawed because some feminists hold extreme views (personally I wouldn't say these people are feminists, I'd call them misandrists). Using your logic conservatives are just moderate fascists and liberals are just moderate communists.
You talk of collectivism as if being a woman is somehow a life choice. You seem to be able to grasp the need for everyone to be treated on a basis that ignores gender but you seem to be blind to the fact that systematic inequalities exist.
You seem to like flipping arguments so let's flip one of yours...
You say - "Demanding an individual to be given opportunity, attention and regard solely based on gender is not rational."
I would say - "Denying an individual opportunity, attention and regard solely based on gender is not rational"
Most level headed people would say that feminism has more to do with the second statement than it does with the first.
I did not say that the feminism is flawed because some people go extreme. I said the extreme form is rooted from a simpler form and that the simpler form is flawed.
The fact that you missed this only proves that I've not been understood.
Ofc, denying based on gender is irrational, I never denied that.
"Most level headed people.... "
To show disagreement with my arguments, you ought use reasons instead of tagging impoliteness along with your declaration of disagreement.
You misrepresented my position, wrote a sentence that's similar in structure to what I wrote and closed with a little colour. I think I shouldn't reply anymore.
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Richard8
I did not say that feminism is about being mad about morons being mean, I said - "Feminism in any form implicitly advocates the position of women as a special class of people".
It's actually current society that does that what you blame feminism of: seeing women as special, not normal, different. In the same way as it does with black people, homosexuals, transgenders. They're treated as different, exceptions to the rule, with the rule being a white heterosexual cis man.
To get to the equality that feminism calls out for, that rule/norm needs to go or expanded in such a way that it incorporates all these groups and their intersections.
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===
Active Ink Slinger
Quote by Richard8
I think I shouldn't reply anymore.
It's probably for the best. At the moment it looks like you're getting ever closer to saying "actually, it's about ethics in games journalism"
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.
Why not read some stories instead
NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Why not read some stories instead
NEW! Want a quick read for your coffee break? Why not try this... Flash Erotica: Scrubber
Quote by BiMale73
It's actually current society that does that what you blame feminism of: seeing women as special, not normal, different. In the same way as it does with black people, homosexuals, transgenders. They're treated as different, exceptions to the rule, with the rule being a white heterosexual cis man.
To get to the equality that feminism calls out for, that rule/norm needs to go or expanded in such a way that it incorporates all these groups and their intersections.
And that might appear to be the logical thing to do, but as I've mentioned earlier, it turns into fertile soil for misuse. If every individual just stops dealing with the morons, fairness will automatically prevail.
It's a daunting task. It'll take time. It's not impossible. But, 'feminism' with its current philosophical foundation isn't the answer.
Active Ink Slinger
Yes I'm a feminist. Am I a raving at the mouth kind of feminist? Sometimes. Especially when I have someone tell me that feminism is outdated or not needed.
Feminism is not outdated. It's needed on a constant daily basis. And for some, in other countries, it is fiercely needed. Especially when women are treated as property to be bought, sold, and used as a commodity for men in power. Because that's exactly what feminism is. It's a power struggle between the sexes and it's overloaded in the favour of men.
Feminism is and always will be the definition of the advocacy of rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality for all. This does not mean that we only care about women because the world is not made up solely as women, but for men and the LGBTQ rights and the freedom to be whoever we want to be without hate or oppression.
The core of feminism is not to hate men (No matter what the MRA's say) and we are consistently weeding out the misandrists in my own feminist groups by educating them.
I can give you lists and lists of reasons why feminism is needed in our world today and why we are fighting an uphill battle for rights to our own bodies without interference.
Up until just a few short years ago it was perfectly okay for a woman's husband to her. Because she was his wife. Because she was his property. Because she had no say.
Women have to get their husbands permission to get their tubes tied from a doctor. But a man doesn't. He can go in and get the procedure done without his wife's consent or knowledge. They're not even questioned about whether or not they're even married. I couldn't get mine done unless I had a husband that would sign off on it. I wasn't married which meant I couldn't have it done. Corpses have more rights than living women.
So please don't blow smoke up my ass and tell me we don't need feminism. That is just one small example among many, many reasons why we need feminism. And until you sit down and actually LISTEN (this means shutting up and opening your ears with an open mind) to what many, many women deal with on a daily, weekly, monthly basis (because many men just don't have a clue) then you can have an opinion on whether or not we need feminism.
Feminism is also needed for boys and men that have been told all their lives to "be a man" or "don't act like a girl" because being a girl is still considered an insult to men. Where men try to get help for domestic abuse and they're laughed out of the building because it's obviously a joke. Or if they're . It's all a big joke. Well it's not. Feminists will always be there to support and advocate for those whose rights have been taken away or ignored.
Take a minute and read just a couple of pages of this. Everyday Sexism Project
Feminism is not outdated. It's needed on a constant daily basis. And for some, in other countries, it is fiercely needed. Especially when women are treated as property to be bought, sold, and used as a commodity for men in power. Because that's exactly what feminism is. It's a power struggle between the sexes and it's overloaded in the favour of men.
Feminism is and always will be the definition of the advocacy of rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality for all. This does not mean that we only care about women because the world is not made up solely as women, but for men and the LGBTQ rights and the freedom to be whoever we want to be without hate or oppression.
The core of feminism is not to hate men (No matter what the MRA's say) and we are consistently weeding out the misandrists in my own feminist groups by educating them.
I can give you lists and lists of reasons why feminism is needed in our world today and why we are fighting an uphill battle for rights to our own bodies without interference.
Up until just a few short years ago it was perfectly okay for a woman's husband to her. Because she was his wife. Because she was his property. Because she had no say.
Women have to get their husbands permission to get their tubes tied from a doctor. But a man doesn't. He can go in and get the procedure done without his wife's consent or knowledge. They're not even questioned about whether or not they're even married. I couldn't get mine done unless I had a husband that would sign off on it. I wasn't married which meant I couldn't have it done. Corpses have more rights than living women.
So please don't blow smoke up my ass and tell me we don't need feminism. That is just one small example among many, many reasons why we need feminism. And until you sit down and actually LISTEN (this means shutting up and opening your ears with an open mind) to what many, many women deal with on a daily, weekly, monthly basis (because many men just don't have a clue) then you can have an opinion on whether or not we need feminism.
Feminism is also needed for boys and men that have been told all their lives to "be a man" or "don't act like a girl" because being a girl is still considered an insult to men. Where men try to get help for domestic abuse and they're laughed out of the building because it's obviously a joke. Or if they're . It's all a big joke. Well it's not. Feminists will always be there to support and advocate for those whose rights have been taken away or ignored.
Take a minute and read just a couple of pages of this. Everyday Sexism Project
Quote by overmykneenow
It's probably for the best. At the moment it looks like you're getting ever closer to saying "actually, it's about ethics in games journalism"
Singling out that particular line takes away the context in which it was made. Your tenor is still quite impolite and therefore I'll do the obvious.
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Richard8
And that might appear to be the logical thing to do, but as I've mentioned earlier, it turns into fertile soil for misuse. If every individual just stops dealing with the morons, fairness will automatically prevail.
It's a daunting task. It'll take time. It's not impossible. But, 'feminism' with its current philosophical foundation isn't the answer.
As been stated by me and others before it is impossible for some. But you just don't want to accept that, because it probably is possible for you. Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that you are a white heterosexual cis man. I'm a white bisexual cis man, but still pretty much in the closet to many people about my sexuality, as I was to myself for a long time. I found it hard to not always project my privilege on other people's experiences. Still do sometimes. I get the impression that you find that hard too.
Acknowleging that you're in a privileged position and that other's may have different experiences doesn't mean that you as an individual are cause of all the problems those other people have. But not acknowleging will probably not make the situation better for them either.
None of us can help being born in a society that's not equal yet. But the least we can do is acknowleging what role we play in maintaining or changing that inequality.
EDIT: stupid syntax error
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by overmykneenow
It's probably for the best. At the moment it looks like you're getting ever closer to saying "actually, it's about ethics in games journalism"
Let us stick to the current discussion and not blame one another for stuff other people said/did in another, though related, discussion.
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===
Quote by BiMale73
As been stated by me and others before it is impossible for some. But you just don't want to except that, because it probably is possible for you. Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that you are a white heterosexual cis man. I'm a white bisexual cis man, but still pretty much in the closet to many people about my sexuality, as I was to myself for a long time. I found it hard to not always project my privilege on other people's experiences. Still do sometimes. I get the impression that you find that hard too.
Acknowleging that you're in a privileged position and that other's may have different experiences doesn't mean that you as an individual are cause of all the problems those other people have. But not acknowleging will probably not make the situation better for them either.
None of us can help being born in a society that's not equal yet. But the least we can do is acknowleging what role we play in maintaining or changing that inequality.
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
I said - "Feminism in any form implicitly advocates the position of women as a special class of people".
It doesn't though.
It's like the civil rights movement when black people were fighting for equal rights like say, the right to use a nearby bathroom. Sometime's there wasn't any black bathrooms around. It doesn't mean that blacks wanted to be treated as a special class of people. It meant they wanted to be treated like everyone else.
I have never understood men like you who are so threatened by this subject. Men who see people standing up for women deservedly, as a threat. It's weak. It's weak to feel the way you do about it. It's weak to think you will be marginalized if women start being treated fairly. To associate fair with special is weak. To feel threatened by feminism makes me think you feel survival of the fittest catching up to you, and you're scared you'll be left behind.
Great minds aren't exclusive to one gender or another. There are a great number of men who stifle half of our population. Fortunately there are more and more men that have evolved out of your way of thinking and they will teach their sons and daughters that our brains all deserve an equal chance and our society will be better for it. More powerful. Look at some of the most underdeveloped backward ass countries on the planet and look at how they treat their women.
Quote by BiMale73
As been stated by me and others before it is impossible for some. But you just don't want to except that, because it probably is possible for you. Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that you are a white heterosexual cis man. I'm a white bisexual cis man, but still pretty much in the closet to many people about my sexuality, as I was to myself for a long time. I found it hard to not always project my privilege on other people's experiences. Still do sometimes. I get the impression that you find that hard too.
Acknowleging that you're in a privileged position and that other's may have different experiences doesn't mean that you as an individual are cause of all the problems those other people have. But not acknowleging will probably not make the situation better for them either.
None of us can help being born in a society that's not equal yet. But the least we can do is acknowleging what role we play in maintaining or changing that inequality.
I'm going to accept "it's impossible for some" for the purpose of the argument. If it's impossible now, it might be possible after a period of intervention. How will the intervention work, if instead of applying what I suggested, people apply present day feminism?
Effort ought to be focused on making the morons bear consequence for their acts of injustice and NOT on portraying women as a distinct class. That, is the role every individual can play in changing the inequality.
And, perhaps for the last time, I stress - the moment you put a class of people under a collective, you're creating a chance for misuse and misdirection. False pride, un-earned self esteem, prejudice and a baseless sense of righteousness in this case, are to name a few. Then there's the superseding of the individual by a collective.
Is inequality going to perish following all that? Won't all the misogynists be even more shut to reason?
Don't you think this is already happening?
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Richard8
Effort ought to be focused on making the morons bear consequence for their acts of injustice and NOT on portraying women as a distinct class.
You seem the only one here who believes that feminism is portraying women as a distinct class.
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
Effort ought to be focused on making the morons bear consequence for their acts of injustice and NOT on portraying women as a distinct class.
Sounds like you are saying that we should reprimand those for disturbing the status quo and giving women a reason to question it.
Quote by Magical_felix
It doesn't though.
It's like the civil rights movement when black people were fighting for equal rights like say, the right to use a nearby bathroom. Sometime's there wasn't any black bathrooms around. It doesn't mean that blacks wanted to be treated as a special class of people. It meant they wanted to be treated like everyone else.
I have never understood men like you who are so threatened by this subject. Men who see people standing up for women deservedly, as a threat. It's weak. It's weak to feel the way you do about it. It's weak to think you will be marginalized if women start being treated fairly. To associate fair with special is weak. To feel threatened by feminism makes me think you feel survival of the fittest catching up to you, and you're scared you'll be left behind.
Great minds aren't exclusive to one gender or another. There are a great number of men who stifle half of our population. Fortunately there are more and more men that have evolved out of your way of thinking and they will teach their sons and daughters that our brains all deserve an equal chance and our society will be better for it. More powerful. Look at some of the most underdeveloped backward ass countries on the planet and look at how they treat their women.
You know what you're doing? You're labeling me as 'something' and throwing blows.
You want to take your frustrations out on 'people like me', go ahead, but please, know EXACTLY what i'm trying to say before jumping to conclusions.
I'd like to see you contest the statement that feminism is a form of collectivism and has misuse....
Of all the people I spoke to here, just one came close to understanding me.
*shrug*
Quote by Magical_felix
Sounds like you are saying that we should reprimand those for disturbing the status quo and giving women a reason to question it.
"Effort ought to be focused on making the morons bear consequence for their acts of injustice and NOT on portraying women as a distinct class. "
How exactly did you construe a "give women a reason to question it" in my statement?
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
"Effort ought to be focused on making the morons bear consequence for their acts of injustice and NOT on portraying women as a distinct class. "
How exactly did you construe a "give women a reason to question it" in my statement?
How exactly do you construe that feminism means women want special treatment?
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
You know what you're doing? You're labeling me as 'something' and throwing blows.
You want to take your frustrations out on 'people like me', go ahead, but please, know EXACTLY what i'm trying to say before jumping to conclusions.
I'd like to see you contest the statement that feminism is a form of collectivism and has misuse....
Of all the people I spoke to here, just one came close to understanding me.
*shrug*
You can call it throwing blows... But it's true. It is weak to be afraid of equality between the sexes. Only a weak person would argue against giving people a far chance. Makes me wonder why they would do so.
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
Of all the people I spoke to here, just one came close to understanding me.
*shrug*
I think I know what you are saying here. I'm not sure though. But I think you are saying that discrimination is wrong but attacking it with feminism is wrong as well because it would mean we are treating women in a special way and that we should focus on eradicating discrimination between the genders without a focus on women.
Am I close?
The problem is that you can't really do that. Would you have told black people during the civil rights movement to just ignore the morons and they will go away and expect to be take seriously? Do you seriously think you could have just said, "well let's not make black people special here by focusing on their plight specifically. That means they want to be special!" And you think people would go, "Man, that Richard is on to something."?
Quote by Magical_felix
You can call it throwing blows... But it's true. It is weak to be afraid of equality between the sexes. Only a weak person would argue against giving people a far chance. Makes me wonder why they would do so.
You're doing it again, you're branding me something that you've assumed me to be and acting on it with a knee jerk response.
Try taking a shot at my arguments.
Wild at Heart
Quote by Richard8
You're answering my question with a question and have yet to make any point.
Feminism today is a collectivist movement. I'm not going to elaborate, it's in my previous posts and with context.
I made a point. It was about your fear and also about your misunderstanding of what feminism is.
I read your previous posts. You are just stating that it's a collectivist movement but you're not really saying why. You just say that feminists want special treatment for simply being women. Which isn't the case. Don't elaborate if you feel it will make you look stupid, that's understandable...but, a qualified woman wanting equal pay for doing the exact same thing as a man is not special treatment. It's by definition, equality. Be it working a drive through or driving a big rig. The same amount of work gets done, the pay should be equal, the opportunity for both sexes should be there to begin with. That is not collectivism. It's about human rights in general in a civilized society.
"insensitive prick!" – Danielle Algo
Quote by Richard8
Feminism today is a collectivist movement. I'm not going to elaborate, it's in my previous posts and with context.
I obviously don't understand what you mean then, not even when I read your earlier posts back. OK, so for my understanding: was the civil rights movement a collectivist movement? If not, what makes one a collectivist movement and not the other?
=== Not ALL LIVES MATTER until BLACK LIVES MATTER ===